My mom's DMV letter came today, all hell is going to break loose...

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My mom's DMV letter came today, all hell is going to break loose...

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Some of you may know my mom is out of town right now. She is currently at my sister's house and will be meeting up with my brother tomorrow who will take her to her cabin in PA where she plans to spend the summer. (I have serious doubts she will be able to stay all summer as my brother doesn't want all the extra hassle, but that's a post for a different day).

The doctor who did my mom's neuro-psych evaluation sent a letter to the DMV in Florida requesting a medical advisory review concerning her ability to drive safely. The letter came today so I picked it up. My mom had intended to have her mail forwarded to her cottage as she has done in previous years but apparently hadn't gotten around to it. No shock there and I was hoping to intercept this letter as I feel if she got it she would have thrown it away.

The letter has a fairly extensive medical questionnaire that she is required to give to her "personal physician" to be completed and returned within 45 days or her license is revoked.

After that the medical board reviews and issues their decision. In looking at the questionnaire I pretty much know my mom will not pass.

My mom is going to be so livid. I'm sure first thing will be hating me for "opening her mail", then she'll blame the doctor who did the neuro-psych eval. Then anyone else in her orbit. This driving thing is a HUGE, HUGE deal to her.

Do I try and take this form to the doctors myself, and not tell her? She's not here to do it herself. Plus I'm afraid if I send it to her she will find some clueless doctor in PA, showboat like hell and then ask that person to fill it out, denying that there is anything of importance in her Florida records.

I'm at a loss. She needs to stop driving, but she won't accept it and I guarantee I will feel her wrath directly. We got into it before she left because she refused to let me put a life alert system in place, even after I offered to pay. The charade of independence is STRONG, even though her deficits are obvious and real.

How do others deal with this?

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Forward the letter to your brother.

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How would that help? He's in PA and all her main doctors are in Florida. My mom's homestead is Florida and so is her driver's license. This form needs to go to her doctors here. I guess I'm venting and worried because I dread her wrath on this, she can get very nasty and somehow, someway she will see me as part of this "conspiracy" to take away her independence. Of course that's BS as the last thing I want to do is have to become her personal Uber, but the fact is she is not safe on the road.

I think I know what I have to do and that is to take the form to the doctors myself and drop it off for them to complete which they are required to do under Florida law. It needs to be received within 45 days or her license is automatically revoked. It's then another 30-60 days and the medical review board for the DMV will make a decision and it will get mailed.

I don't know if other states have a medical review board for the DMV like Florida. There are lots of seniors in FL so maybe that is unique to us, IDK.

But when her license is eventually revoked I need to know when, and I will absolutely tell my siblings and my brother will need to take her keys (she has two cars, one she keeps here, and one she keeps in PA). Aside from the obvious dangers -- if she were to have an accident driving illegally there could be lawsuits, and judgements. But my mom will risk it, because in her mind she drives just fine. According to her she drives better than me. None of that is true just an illustration of how defensive she is on this issue.

I worry about her wrath just like I did when I was growing up. It's pathetic and the reason I am now in therapy.

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How about you do nothing?

Re-seal the letter and put it with whatever mail she has. 45 days and her license gets revoked, right?

Piper, you seem to be bothered by your mom's anger. You take it to heart. You allow the idea of her rage affect what you do.

She's a toddler, intellectually. How would you deal with an actual toddler? By ignoring the tantrum. YOU know what the right thing to do is. Just ignore her yelling and nastiness. Leave. Hang up. Go to therapy if necessary (I would CERTAINLY find it necessary!)

But don't let her dementia and craziness define your self esteem. I understand that this is dementia ON TOP of previously existing mental illness, so all the harder to deal with. But realize that it truly is HER and not you.

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Thanks Barb, I know you are right. It's a shame how these ingrained long term dysfunctional patterns from growing up never really leave. I have a therapy appointment tomorrow so I'm trying to change. It's hard though when so much of it is like a reflex reaction. I'm going to keep going though, I feel that in time I will get better at dealing with her. I should have started therapy long ago. Oh well. Hoping to develop better coping skills while I have some space for the next ??? I'm guessing 4-6 weeks max.

I don't want to just put the letter aside, as if it's ignored it might buy her time so to speak because she will claim she never received it so they might give her a fresh 45 days to give the form to her doctor. I don't even trust her to do that right, I could picture her giving it to the pain doctor she won't let me near who keeps giving her Vicodin scripts.

I'm going to take it to her main neurologist and let that doctor fill it out as she was the doctor who ordered the neuro-psych eval that triggered this whole thing, and she also has that doctors report. The neurologist will comply, she has to by law.

After that, I can and will monitor the status of her license, and when it is revoked (which I'm sure will happen) then I'll take the appropriate action (take the keys) and block out her wrath.

Thanks again for being the voice of reason. I really appreciate it.

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Piper -
It is so hard to be the target! I understand, sincerely. I am in the same boat. As if it is my fault! She tells me every day that she is INDEPENDENT. I try to imagine her beating her chest like a gorilla when she says it for a giggle later -
It sounds like your mom has Asognosia like mine. Refuses to believe she has dementia, or anything else for that matter.

It seems like you know what you need to do. You have two options, since you know that the main thing is that she is not safe driving. You can either... Take the letter to her doctor. I wouldn't say a peep about how it got there, and when she loses her license, blame the doctor. So sorry mom, I can't believe this happened! After you have safely hidden the keys -

Or, you can pretend it never arrived and she will lose her license automatically, right?

I am thinking the first option is your best one. I would be so upset if mom drove and injured / killed someone. And I know you would be too. So, this license battle is in my future. My mom currently has a license, but doesn't drive anywhere. Since she is watched closely. I know if I wasn't here she would be driving! I requested my husband relocate the car keys rack yesterday, just in case!

Hang in there. I hope this helps - it is nice to have company in our crazy boat, right?
Sparkles

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Thank you, yes it does help to know I am not alone trying to survive inside an insane asylum.

I'm going to drop the DMV info off at her neurologist office tomorrow on my way to my therapist. I want her license revoked as soon as possible for the very reasons you say. This is no longer about what she wants, it's NUTS that some seniors think they have the right to endanger others. Well, that's why Florida thankfully has these kinds of laws in place, and her doctor acted on it and now the process starts.

My husband already said the second her license is revoked he will take her keys. If it happens while she is still in PA, my brother will take the keys.

And I will do as you described.... Oh well, that's too bad, but it's the law and you can't drive illegally. Earlier I was all worked up like she might find out I'm helping to facilitate this by getting the form to her doctor. Meanwhile, she won't even know.

LOL, sometimes I have to laugh when I think back on how much this stuff gets to me. We, the targets have to do what Barb suggested- realize it's them and not us.

No wonder my therapist diagnosed me with "Adjustment Disorder"...... yeah no kidding!

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As difficult as all this is perhaps you first and foremost consider the possible victims out there that might be affected by her driving at this point. I am sure you wouldn't want their welfare and potential lives at stake. Then you consider the potential lawsuits.

I think your answer as knowing what you need to do in regards to getting the notification to her doctors in Florida makes sense. This has become a legal matter. Her wrath is not more powerful than the law.

Then I am hopeful you sort this out in therapy and eventually find some peace and strength.

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If you do take it to her doctor, is there any remote chance the doctor will “pass” her? What if he does? If that’s a possibility, I think I’d do nothing and let it expire naturally after the 45 days.

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Perhaps the form could be taken to the neurologist who then could be asked if what would have to be written would be favorable to her mother's continued driving. If the answer is "no" then the form would be completed and sent. If the answer is "yes" then the form would not be completed or sent--it "somehow got lost in the mail" so by default the license would be revoked.

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I'd try to lower your expectations of your mother's behavior, reactions, responses. She may be very upset, but, it will pass. She will likely be upset about something else later on. I'd also keep in mind that eventually, she forget about driving at all. And not remember how it was that she stopped driving.

I think that it's very common for people who have dementia to be extremely agitated, resistant to care, even aggressive. If it's not this thing, it'll be another and many more. Rarely do we have LO's who have dementia who are compliant, calm, cooperative, etc. It's usually very challenging on a daily basis, and for imaginary things or simple things. For me, reading a lot about dementia behavior and lowering my expectations helped. If you don't you are on a roller coaster ride, waiting for the next explosion. Someone who is comfortable taking responsibility and who can not take it personally will need to lead the way and protect her from herself. Keeping a person who has dementia happy, content and without issue, is just not feasible, based on my experience.

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ExhaustedPiper;

I want to point out to you that the solution you came up with is one that YOU crafted. Not us. You considered the options and the possible outcomes and you chose a very good way to handle this.

You are clearly a smart, capable, empathetic and caring person, even to your mom, who may not deserve such a daughter. You are correct in assuming that your task in therapy is to lose the Pavlovian response to the symptoms of your mom's mental illness and dementia. She trained you well to respond to her rages with Fear, Obligation and Guilt. This creates the well-know FOG that you deal with when trying to act and think rationally around her.

You're getting there! My hat is off to you.

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Barb, what a beautiful, loving, true response.

ExhustedPiper, You did craft your response. I had 6 years of therapy, and a 50,000 mile checkup now and then. Keep at it, You are cared for by many people and please stay on this forum and let us care and love you. Your husband taking the keys is perfect. Give that wonderful man a kiss and a hug.

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I had similar situation, except it was my 66 yo sister. Her dementia is bad and she ended up driving into Mexico, however at the border they turned her around because she didn’t have the right identification to enter the country.
I was able to reach her the following morning and she didn’t know where she was, ended up in a gas station at a Cali/Mexican border town.
we had to go down and get her .. she was having a deluded episode.
I was told by APS to get her license revoked.
So I submitted info to the DMV office that handles such. She too got a letter, she refused to fill out her portion but we took it to her neurologist during her appt, the Dr. charged me $20 to fill out the form
and he stated her dementia was worsening and that she should not be driving. He also said she had failed memory tests 2x’s,
in less then 10 days after I submitted the paperwork back my sister got a letter from DMV safety office stating her license has been suspended due to an unfavorable diagnosis of dementia.
Thankfully she accepted that, and we sold her car.

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I would do exactly what you are going to do. There is no way if Mom got that letter that she would have taken it to the doctor. Fill out what you can and take it to the doctor. She will never know. She will just get a letter from DMV asking her to hand in her license.

Please, don't feel guilty about this. I really think there should be stricter laws concerning the elderly and driving. Also, that doctors must be the reporter and not expect family to handle it.

I thought FLA was a state that tested their elderly periodically for driving?

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In my experience, it's just a mandatory eye exam.

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I would not take the document to your mother's physician. It's your mother's mail, just forward it to her, along with whatever other mail has come if any. If she asks why it looks as if you opened it, just say it was a mistake. You thought maybe it was a traffic ticket, or car registration renewal?

Even if you are the POA, that doesn't mean that you HAVE to deal with her mail, it just means that you have the legal authority to deal with her mail.

As far as your mother being able to get someone in PA to step in: I doubt that any reputable physician in PA who does not normally treat your mother is going to agree to fill out that form at all, never mind fill it out in a way that would pass Florida driving issues. That's a huge liability for that PA physician. And, I'm not sure that the Florida DMV would even honor a form filled out by a PA physician. You could call and ask the Florida DMV about that.

Lastly, right now, at Florida DMV, it is recorded that your mother has been deemed not authorized to drive by a physician. And, not just any physician, but one who did a neuro-psych evaluation. That means that wherever she drives, if she gets into an accident, insurance will not cover it and someone could sue your mother civilly and, if they win, get a judgment taking way all her assets that are not legally protected from a judgment. And, obviously, we all know that it's a crime, however low level, to drive without a valid license.

As long as she is in PA, she won't drive, right? As long as you don't try to expedite things, which could go against what you want, this may play itself out within the 45 days and when your mother gets mad at you then you can blame it all on the medical and legal professions!

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This is my second post, sorry.

My grandfather, when he was over 80, moved into AL. He still had his car, and a valid driver's license, and he drove. He almost aways had a little fender bender. But, my father (his son, obviously), knew that if my father tried to get the license taken away that my grandfather would be devastated.

So, my father tried to do as much as he could for his father s that no driving was needed. And, as soon as my grandfather needed to renew his license, my father went to the DMV with my grandfather's medical records and photos of all the DINGS in the car, and asked them to make my grandfather take a driving test (not just an eye test) and let my grandfather take the test but FLUNK him. Because my grandfather should not have been driving.

Yes, it was a small town.....but not really. 100,000 people.

My father took my grandfather to the DMV, and he flunked on is own, without any dishonesty needed from the DMV.

It is possible to get the DMV to help.

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Excellent course of action. However, it's NOT obvious to a reader that your father is your grandfather's son--he could have been a son-in-law. While I was growing up and until I was almost 31 y/o, my father interacted considerably with his father-in-law (his own father had died when I was only 4 y/o so I have only one dim memory of him).

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If this form has to be returned within 45 days...
She is out of town....
You have no knowledge of this letter....(wink wink)
Her license will be revoked before she knows it has been revoked.
She can then "try" to get another letter and another doctor visit upon her return. But until she obtains the signed form she will not be able to drive.
The question is does she have access to a vehicle in PA where she is? If she tries to rent a car they will find out that her license has been revoked.

One of the ways I got my Husband to sort of accept the no driving..I told him with the new the medication he was on the doctor said he could not drive while he was taking it. He still asked and he did take the car once, I had hidden the keys but obviously not well enough. I got a carabiner clip and attached the keys to my belt loop!

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I went through a very similar thing with my in laws. None of my family would write to DPS to ask for an evaluation. They both have dementia. Have gotten lost while driving and has had a wreck. My personal doctors have told me that I am doing everyone on the road a favor and my in laws a favor by getting them off the road. I'll take the wrath. I do anyway for everything else. That's a fact. They've yelled at me, pounded the table. Neurologist has told them no driving. Some see driving as their last bit of independence that has been taken away. They do not see that it is for their safety and the safety of others. Do what needs to be done!

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My dad lost his driving privileges because of dementia in December of 2017. He continued to drive for over 6 more months without a license. I was scared to death something would happen. I tried a mini intervention in April of 2018 to get his keys from him (zipped in his pocket 24/7). I had to physically force myself to take them. He became so violent we had to call the police and they put him in handcuffs and took him away in an ambulance and he stayed in the hospital for a few days on a medical hold, only to find after that there were extra sets of keys I didn't know about. No, that did not stop his driving. The DMV failed to have him turn in his old license when he got his ID card and in his mind, he still 'had a license' because it was still in his wallet. I got to know the sheriff in his neighborhood and used to leave phone messages for him when my dad was out so they could pull him over. Finally one day, the sheriff called me and he was at dads. My dad was sitting in his car in the driveway and the sheriff had taken the hard copy of his license from him. After that, he said he no longer had a license and did not drive on the street anymore but he still drives back and forth in and out of his garage. Unfortunately because he is on his own property, the sheriff told me there is nothing we can do. The caregivers are the ones that usually drive his cars now. Just because they revoke his license, it does not mean they won't still drive.

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I suppose he got a certain amount of pleasure driving out of the garage and back. At least that way he would be unlikely to hurt anyone but could dent the car--if he did that, then that could be the "AHA" moment that points out that he should give up driving completely!

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Here in BC, at age 80 and every two years after that drivers need to pass a mandatory medical exam.

The form is mailed out about 6 prior to the driver’s birthday and has to be completed by the family doctor.

Dad passed his this year at age 90, but he is not driving much at all anymore.

Additionally a family doctor can fill in the forms to have a license pulled if they feel the person is no longer safe to drive. It takes a fair bit of the burden off the family.

Of course it does not help with the anger of the parent. Nor does it stop them from driving without a license. But here the police can impound the car if the driver does not have a license.

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Um. Do you have your mother's permission to open her mail?

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With my MIL she got to take the new test for her license . she passed and I had told them she needed to drive . In short she got 3 tries ,they even came to her house the last time . Then the officer told her it wasn't safe for her or other ppl to be driving .. I heard all about how mad she was at the cops for taking her license but she never tried to drive after . Since she always obeyed the laws . And you get a easy way to not be the person she is yelling about .. she never did get the officers name who told her nope you cant drive .We the family then weren't to blame either !

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When my mother could no longer see the lines in the road due to bad macular degeneration, she took herself off the road. Bravo for her BUT.......She attached herself to me so I could take her all over and be the whipping person who had to carry on her life as if she was still independent. After some trials and tribulations, I established boundaries and there’s been more peace. But it was not easy.

Taking public transportation was out of the question due to her poor eyesight. She was too vulnerable. I had to do everything for her when she was out - like pay with her credit card, use cash, look for an item etc. So it was me who had to do everything for her except use the bathroom.

Be prepared to take on her life! She will hand it to you on a silver platter. I’ve been doing this for over 7 yrs now. Oddly enough, I had a dream last night that my father (who passed 8 yrs ago) came in to take my mother to a new apartment. In my dream they were both in their 30’s or 40’s. I woke up so very relieved that someone else was taking over my burden. I felt finally that my overwhelming responsibility of caring for my mother was finally over. It was like walking in air for me this morning! I forgot how knee-deep into being responsible for someone else’s life was all about. Like having kids again. Anyway, I’m back to reality for now. Have a POW-WOW with your siblings and get things sorted out to make life easier for you all.

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Hello Exhausted Piper, I am going through a similar situation with my sister. I am getting her evaluated by a neurologist (we still don't have full diagnosis). Once I get a diagnosis, I will send a letter to the DMV and get her license revoked. I will take the car keys myself. I know my sister will be angry but it is better than her getting lost, getting into an accident and hurting herself or someone else.

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My 90 year old father starting driving on the "farm" when he was 12. Not so much as one ticket or accident until he turned 89. Then as dementia began he started having minor scrapes and rubs on his vehicle. I knew that dad probably should stop driving but being so independent I chose not to do anything (guessing I knew the fallout would be huge). My brother (who lives with him) refused to even discuss having his license revoked (no doubt afraid he would have to drive dad). One day I saw the side view mirror was missing - dad couldn't remember hitting anything. The police brought him home at 4:00 am because he had curbed it and got a flat tire. He told them he was going to the doctors. Neither the police nor his clinic doctor (various doctors alternate seeing patients) pulled his license. I rode with him to see first hand if there was a problem. He went through two red lights and drove about 20mph in a 50 zone. I went to my doctor, explained the situation and got dad to come for a appointment. He failed the medical tests horribly. Three weeks later the DMV sent "THE" letter. He was furious at the doctor (and at me). He took my brothers keys a couple weeks later and went out Christmas shopping. The police stopped him 1/2 mile from home for which he incurred $840.00 in fines. This still did not daunt him, to this day he would drive if he found anyone's keys and does not understand why this happened to him. It is a battle 10 months later. But as guilty as I felt having this done to him, and as sneaky as I feel warning everyone to pocket their keys, I know it is the right thing. Do you want to wait until your Mom is injured? Do you think maybe you can wait until something happens? Could you live with yourself if Mom injured or killed another person from her alterned driving? I knew Dad would lose his pride, independence, and freedom when I did this, but I also knew it wasn't going to get any better and I wasn't going to take any chances. I now take my father for a ride every Sunday and Wednesdays are set for his errand days. He's not entirely happy and it is another job for me - but it's the best I could do and feel it was the right thing to do.

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Wow your dad and my mom should meet, they might be soulmates. Honestly, you did the right thing and I feel very similar to you. Putting people's very lives at risk outweighs her need to independence and pride.

I also like your idea of having a schedule. I plan to do the same. I will not be "on call" 24/7 but I will set aside two days a week to take her wherever she needs to go.

BTW how is your dad doing with your brother? Are their living arrangements working out okay?

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When my Father was 88 he had an accident in the neighbors driveway hitting their car no one injured and little damage. The police were called and they wrote it up as a "Senior Accident" and DMV was notified. Dad received a letter stating he would need to take a drivers test ( eye,written and driving) to keep his license. My sister said it was a very tense time but he passed with flying colors. However about six months later he had a stroke never a drove again. He did become a great back seat driver and always was quick to give the driver pointers on what he thought they were doing wrong.

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My mother lost her license because the DMV found out that she's 75% blind due to glaucoma. She kept driving without the license and planned to keep on, forever. I told my sister that if mom hurt or killed anyone her money and property would be taken away in a lawsuit and there'd be nothing left to inherit. (Insurance wouldn't cover her without the license.) That did the trick--word spread throughout the family and everyone applied so much pressure that mom finally sold her car and stopped driving. Study your family situation to apply pressure at the right points...

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We also took away all sets of car keys but despite her dementia, mom called a man to make new ones in her driveway for $400.

She also thought that as long as she held on to her physical license she was safe to drive--she didn't understand that when you get pulled over they look up the license number in a database to see if it's valid.

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Hi ExhaustedPiper: My dad is going to be 90 in July. In 2016 he was drinking a 12 pack a day. I knew he had to stop driving but he'd go in the morning, get his beer and come home and drink all afternoon. I prayed if he had an accident no one would be killed. He did have an accident Aug, 2016. His fault. He was taken to the county hospital as he was so confused. Thank God no one else was hurt. The police wrote up an accident report and notified DMV. Dad got a letter stating his license had been suspended but he could appeal that decision. He read the letter but forgot that he could appeal and then I started telling him that he "lost" his license due to the accident. He doesn't even remember any of it now and when I tell him he doesn't have a license he says he'll go to Oklahoma (where he was born) and get one there. haha I'm wondering, while your mom is gone, could you disable the car (take out the distributor cap) so if she does go to drive it won't start. Perhaps with the letter from the DMV and the car being "broken" and needing "repair" that would help with the transition. My dad is VERY independent too. That trait never goes away. I wish you the best as you cross this hurdle.

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Luckily, my mom gave her license up without much of a struggle. We live in NY state and insurance is required. After she had 3 accidents in 3 years, her insurance was dropping her. I told her no other insurance company was going to want to pick her up unless they put her in a risk pool and that would be very expensive. That appealed to my mom's thriftiness and - even though she could have easily afforded it - she thought she'd go broke paying it and relinquished her driving privileges. She would not, however, turn in her license and because of that, MY insurance increased. My agent reasoned that she was living in my house and could have taken my car or my son's if she got her hands on the keys.

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Would she turn in the license if you requested she pay the increase in your insurance just because she had it even though she doesn't have a car?

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A few weeks ago, 2 elderly women from the Bay Area, both suffering cognitive decline, took a drive down to my neck of the woods. Roughly a 115 mile drive. I don’t know if anything happened on the way down but.......they did a hit & run sometime after arriving in town, I believe they hit a parked car and kept going. And then when they left for home, they got on highway 1 and drove several miles going NORTHBOUND in the SOUTHBOUND lanes, before the highway patrol got them stopped! They are lucky they didn’t kill someone!

I hope the driver’s family took away her keys after that.......

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I just went through this with both my parents. My mum, having dementia, really didn't care/notice. My father was extremely angry his independence had been taken away. They lived in the suburbs and were car reliant with no family members nearby. Because my father refused to stop driving I reported them to DMV and they went through the process of trying to fill out the forms, get medical approval to drive from their doctors (declined).
Yes, the charade of independence is intense. My father feels life is not worth living without full independence. The lose of driving privileges led to their moving in with me and I have been the subject of his anger. It doesn't matter, it had to be done. They were not only risking their own lives, but the lives of everyone else on the road.
I really felt bad reporting them (and they don't know I did, though my father suspects), but I felt it was my responsibility.
When he lashes out at me about living with me and I tell him, "This isn't about me, this is just what getting old is. I'm sorry you have lost your driving privileges and your world has gotten smaller. It's not my fault, it's just life."

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Just a quick question. Are you your mothers guardian or Power of Attorney? Or is she still Independent and signs for herself. If so there could be legal problems if you take the paperwork to her doctor without her approval.

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It's a good thing that you opened said letter! She shouldn't be driving and you should tell her doctor that. Good grief - she would kill someone!

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Do what you know you need to do. I lost a good friend because some senior was driving only because her family was too chicken to get her keys away from her. She plowed right into my friend who was on a motorcycle killing him. To me her family was just as guilty as she was.

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I'm so sorry about your friend. Thank you for sharing what happened, because it only strengthens my resolve to see this through.

I'm very sorry for your loss. That never should have been allowed to happen.

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As a former insurance agent ------ good luck
This is a very tricky and hard area to navigate.

Some customers told the senior the doctor/insurance agent advises you should not drive for a while
or the State is clamping down and said you can't drive for xx amount of months.

Mom your driving is scaring me that you may get hurt. I love you and want you safe. If you need to go somewhere I'll be happy to take you. ( or others who are available ) Just let us know when you want to go somewhere.

This is so hard. For some its the most sacred feeling of independence. Good luck in however you approach it.

Even if the license were to be revoked or not renewed, your mother can still try and drive. Remove keys where she can't find them and incapacitate the car if you plan on keeping the car.

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My mom's DMV letter came today, all hell is going to break loose...

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