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My 90 year old parents lived in IL until 5 weeks ago when dad fell (for the 3rd time) and broke his hip. Mom has severe dementia and is in respite MC because she is an elopement risk and extremely belligerent, everything is on her time. Pins were put in Dad's hip - surgery and recovery in SN has gone well. Dad tries very hard and is very successful in therapy. However he does nothing for himself when he is back in his SN room. He continues to just eliminate in his depends and expect to be pushed to meals. He never rings the nurse to tell them he needs help to get to the bathroom or when he needs changing. He is on 2 hour routine toileting checks - at which time he'll do what they tell him to but no initiation on his part. He is scheduled to move to AL in a week. I'm told he needs to be toileting (or using depends) himself to move to AL or he'll end up in LTSN. He does not want LTSN and even keeps asking if he and mom will be living together in AL. He can't take care of himself, little alone Mom. He is scoring well on the SLUMS test so dementia is not the issue.



We are lucky they are in a continuum of care facility so they will only be 1 floor apart and will be able to see each other a lot and even occasional eat together. I have talked to Dad repeated, even cried out of frustration with him, but I can't seem to get through that he has to get back to participating in life if he wants something other than LTSN. How do I get through to him?

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A couple of respondents have mentioned this already, but I think it's really important to establish if he is aware physiologically that he is eliminating in the disposable underwear. It is possible for women in their 70's to have issues where bowel movements are passing without the person realizing it, due to the loss of sensation and muscle control in certain areas (an immediate family member has struggled with this for years) . If one of his doctors can make an evaluation and/or find an effective way to discuss the issue with him while maintaining his dignity, that will be valuable no matter what kind of facility he is in. I think it would be especially important to consider, in addition to the anxiety mentioned by another poster, the high likelihood of depression for your father, not only due to missing his wife, but also due to the the circumstances as a whole. Is there a way to help assess and possibly mitigate that, perhaps? I have heard my husband discuss how his mother, who knows she needs to get up in the morning to prevent having urinary incontinence and a messed bed, will simply stay in bed and let it happen. That seems like a strong representation of depression to me, but I'm not a psychologist.
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See if he will respond to an alarm on a phone, watch... that is a "reminder" to use the toilet. Set it to go off every 2 hours while he is awake. Let him pick the sound.
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I have to agree, there is some Dementia at play if you can't reason with him. At 90 breaking a hip is very serious. Going under for the elderly is very serious. It will effect his cognitive function. Its sort of they are good, then they aren't. Breaking a hip is a shock to the whole system. Your Dad being in a wheelchair may make it hard for him to toilet. He may need more PT. He may need SN. ALs are limited in the care they give. Thats why they are called "Assisted".
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If the issue is not dementia with your father then he can be reasoned with.

Have a meeting with him and his doctor. Both of you tell him that if he refuses to start using a toilet again he will have to be in the nursing home area of the facility he's in.

Then explain to him what the differences are between that and AL.
He will not have the freedom to come and go that people have in assisted living.
He will very likely have to share a room if he's in going to be living in LTSN.
Let him know that AL allows the hiring of a private aides that come to help and who will take him out.

Have his doctor tell him in these terms too.
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Mmccontex: I did see your post further down this thread that your father is in a wheelchair. Ergo, this is no doubt contributing to his toileting issues.
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Hello. This is embarrassing to me but i will tell you for your own piece of mine.

im 83. My bowel has fallen on my bladder so guess which one is causing me a problem. Of course it could be a brain thing too ??? But 😾 it’s not the part id “hoped” for.

i get to the bathroom sometimes and seems it’s WHAT ! Not again !!! I havent even noticed anything.

so, your dad may forget but he may also may not realize it.
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Unfortunately, your dad is exhibiting the early symptoms of dementia. Quite often, a particularly bad sickness, or a fall requiring surgery, tips them off the edge of being ok, to having dementia. Not sure why it works that way, but more times than none, it does.

I don't think your dad is being lazy or belligerent. I think the part of his brain that controls impulse is faltering. Also, it's very possible that your dad fears he will fall again, whether up walking around or worse, going to the bathroom during the night.

Unlessyour dad becomes confident using a walker, his mobility issues will only get worse until the wheelchair is his only option.

Are there any activities your dad enjoys that would compel him to want to get up and moving? What about a family picnic?

He can be in AL with a wheelchair and Depends. Is that not possible where you are?
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Mmccontex
Thinking about you.
How is dad doing in rehab?
How are you managing?
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Dad already poseses the very best motivation he could get: Get more independant to get back to living with/nearer Mom.

So my guess is it is not motivation.

It's either physical (pain. stiffness, weakness) or mental (cognitive effects/delerium post surgery). Any or all of these factors.
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My mom is in AL and there is no way they could keep up with dealing with an incontinent person there. Every place is different but I this is a big issue. I think he's almost certainly having some dementia issues. Some could be related to the surgery and it's possible he could improve a bit, but no way to know if he will or how much. At this point, doesn't seem like AL is a great fit. He could go to SN for now and if he improves, then you could try to get him moved to the AL area.

Good luck.
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BurntCaregiver Sep 2023
@again

The AL I worked for did not allow residents who no longer used a toilet.
Sure, people used pull-ups and pads but they were not allowed to replace the toilet.
If a resident became incontinent and stopped using the toilet, they had to be moved out.
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Great advice everyone. Thanks. He is still non-weight bearing on that leg for another week. Which is why he is still predominantly in a wheelchair. I'll think we'll postpone any move or decision to see where he is after that. Thanks for the support.
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We watched my dad go through the cycles of hospitalization and rehab. Each time left him with a new, lower level of function. We continually encouraged him to “try harder” and he somewhat would, but over time we finally came to understand that he simply had no more “try” left in him. Despite wanting things to be better, which he fully understood, along with the consequences if it didn’t improve, there just wasn’t any more “trying harder” to be done. He was old and exhausted. The biggest gift we gave him was understanding and acceptance. I obviously can’t say if this is where your dad is, but at least consider it. Have an honest conversation, see if he will open up, even if he can’t express it, he may just be worn out by how hard life has become, and that’s okay. I wish you both peace
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Have you asked if it is possible to have both Mom and Dad together in memory care? If not at their current facility , maybe another one that also has LTSN for the future. Although they may both be headed for LTSN soon anyway.
My FIL's AL puts up with his incontinence, that he does take care of properly on his own, Tried toileting schedule. He refuses and sits in the same depend all day. He only changes his wet depends when he gets dressed or undressed because he struggles so much with his shoes. He refuses help getting his shoes on and off or to wear slippers . He refuses help with changing depends unless he has a bad bowel blow out from laxatives that he needs.
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waytomisery Sep 2023
oops. does NOT take care of properly on his own.
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Sadly your dad may have lost the ability to participate in his bowel care.
My DH aunt (96 with dementia, bed bound) was aware that she had a BM but not until after it happened. As she put it, “I don’t go but it does”

Your dad has gone through a lot and no doubt he is very tired. If he was your moms primary caregiver before, he may need a minute to recover if it is even possible. Many elders who have the responsibility of caring for a spouse pass before the one with the obvious issues. Even with having help, he probably feels like he must watch over her.

I would be concerned that he needs a wheelchair and isn’t using a walker at this stage of his recovery. Have you asked his PT team about that and about ongoing therapy? I’ve had a couple of elders who have gone through broken hips and they were mobile very soon afterwards so that’s surprising to me that at 5 weeks he is considered doing well in therapy but still in a wheelchair. Perhaps he is walking in therapy, just not in his room…

Was your dads SLUMS dementia testing done AFTER the surgery or before?

Just know every major event, change of location etc can cause mental decline and confusion and progression of dementias.

Since the facility you are in has a continuum of care, whoever is telling you he won’t be accepted in ALF is telling you the policy for that facility.

I think I would look for an alternate facility just to explore options. With two, especially if private pay, you might find a willingness to work with you on having them be able to see each other on a regular basis. Facilities are not all the same. We tend to think the one we have experience with as the way they all are. Not always the case.

If you will need to be filing for Medicaid at some point then you may not have a choice but to use SN/NH as most states don’t provide Medicaid in ALF/MC. You would need to check for your state.

My DH aunt was in an ALF completely incontinent. They had no problem with it. They just charged according to services needed.

You certainly have a lot to deal with. Please know that you must pace yourself and allow their needs to guide you. You being in tears because dad is incontinent will not help either of you but I certainly do understand the difficulty of these moments. I would not pressure him. He is probably doing the best he can.

I would have his tested for a UTI just in case he has one me that has increased these dementia like symptoms.

You must take care of yourself. All three of you are depending on you. Take a moment to realize that they are in decline and it’s no longer about trying harder. More about making sure they are able to get the help they need. Big hugs to you.
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anonymous1732518 Sep 2023
A guy in this facility poops not necessarily in the toilet, big still in his room. It doesn't bother him, he heads out for his smoke when the smoking area opens at 6 am
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Have you established with his facility that his next level of care will LTSN rather than MC?
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Your dad sounds like he has very high anxiety, which may explain why you say he "is scoring well on the SLUMS test" and keeps asking if he will be living with your mother. And by "well" do you mean normal?

He is 90 and he is only going to get more frail. You cannot expect a man at his age and in his condition to keep up the amount of self-care he needs to qualify for assisted living. Accept that he needs LTSN and move on to helping him adjust.
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I don't agree that dementia isn't the issue. His behavior is much like dementia. His anesthetic for the surgery may have left him with some cognitive decline. It isn't normal for someone to want to eliminate in Depends. It isn't normal not to initiate bathroom visits on his own. He keeps asking the same question, wanting to know if he and mom will be together in AL. He should be retaining that information, not keep asking for it.

Sadly, I don't believe there is any way to get through to him. Discuss these issues with his medical team because they need to be fully informed before he gets to a place where he can't function well enough to be happy. AL may not be for him.
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You don't get through to him. You cannot. Everything cannot be fixed. Even if you were to manage to whip him into some sort of shape for level IV care in ALF, it would not last whatsoever. He is not motivated to do this, and perhaps CANNOT mentally adjust to it. It is what it is. I am so sorry. If wishes were fishes.......etc. We cannot change things just because we want to. You have done what you could. Just comes now to an acceptance of things being what they are and doing the best you can for him.
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