Should I bother to help my neighbor who is a hoarder?
Ok, dear friends, here is the situation: she has lived in her house, a MacMansion, huge, for twelve years; I have lived here for two. I am, apparently her only friend; she has no contact with relatives. So, I am the person she calls. Fortunately, she has plenty of money and investments. Her hoarded stuff is piled about eight feet high in the garage and about four feet high in the house. There are tiny narrow pathways through it all. It is not dirty, as such, mostly stacked in containers or baskets. At the same time is 15-20 feet deep from path to wall so how can one clean??? Now at age 70 she is experiencing pain and mobility issues. Will soon have surgery. She has tried to clean bits of the garage but, as you can imagine, it is just a drop in the ocean. I am worried that when the county steps in--or someone steps in, her good stuff (coin collection, etc.) will be tossed with junk. I want to write an e-mail and give her a heads up that she needs to get the valuables entrusted to a bank or someone in her family, and she needs to take measures before it is all out of her control. Should I?
On the television show I've often heard that trauma was experienced prior to hoarding. OK - off of my rambling soapbox.
Believe me, I know one! Or sometimes it is triggered by a trauma (divorce coupled with death of parent and child around the same time). It is under the umbrella of mental illness and as such needs to be dealt with by a psychiatrist. Even then, the person MAY NOT recover.
I liked your idea of putting coins in a safety deposit box until I flashed on the coffee cans full of coins my coin collectors have. I appreciated your optimism on various subjects and am sorry for your childhood of abuse.
To Salisbury
Could you give us an update on your neighbor? Did she have the surgery? Did the boyfriend take care of her? Has he seen the house? Did the fleas get taken care of? Do you still meet for coffee? So interesting how people live their lives.
First, do you yourself have special protections for your own valuables such as cash, coin collections, and other stuff like expensive jewelry? If you've already taken care of the stuff that can go into a bank deposit box, you might want to tell her about that and what you've done to protect what belongs to you. Do some bragging, brag, brag, brag without going ridiculous. Tell what great things you have stored away when you and your friend happen to be looking over or something. Tell about something you may have that may be similar and how you're protecting what you have. If you have stuff stored in a bank deposit box, mention how the bank has helped you and anyone over at your bank that you know such as a worker or even the manager. Talk about different promotions and stuff the bank may have at that time and if you know anyone over there tell them about any recent interesting encounters you had with that person. Talking enough about related topics may get this person thinking and may get them curious enough to want to check out putting their own appropriate valuables into a bank deposit box, even if they think they may get to know someone there because you never know. When you have a conversation, you might even want to bring up that you're going out, want to join me for lunch? After lunch, stop by the bank on your way back home and take her in with you to make some people you know and let her see you go back to your safety deposit box to do whatever it is you need to do back there. Some people are fascinated by big huge room size safes and safety deposit boxes can be kept in something like that. Sometimes the safes are very fascinating to just see, and if she sees that your bank has something like this she may also want to bring some of her stuff down and get her own safety deposit box because every time you go in there you get to walk into a safe to do it. We have a building in our town that's a former bank and it had such a set up. I bank at one of the branches and got to see the safe because it was actually used in the movie called Shawshank Redemption back in the early 90s. Some of the movie was shot in our town. The bank building has since been turned into something else but part of the safe is still there because it's now an office.
Now, here's my other thought:
Why not bring in someone who has been a hoarder but has since cleaned up and never looked back? Sometimes it takes an ex hoarder to help a hoarder.
As for protecting your other assets that cannot go into a safety deposit box, she should actually hide and store the checkbooks but best to get eliminate check writing altogether. If someone finds and steals her checkbook, they can write a blank check to themselves for any amount they want even in the multi millions. They can deposit the check, take the money and run before the bank can detect the mistake. They can also forge signatures, access and change life insurance policy's among other things as well as make changes by signing her name off on deeds and titles. This can all be done by forging another person's signature or even through coercion and very high-pressure to the point of abuse. What she needs to do is gather up the deeds and titles to everything she owns and other very important legal papers, and then get a bank safety deposit box and keep those papers locked away. What she needs to do is make sure her lawyer has copies of everything. Then, make sure she has copies and then more copies for the bank deposit box. The more copies of something she has, the better. What I would do is make copies of the deeds and titles and then find somewhere safe to put the originals. That way, if someone comes in on her and starts going through her home, all they'll ever find is copies and not the originals. Take the deeds and titles to a copying machine and just run them off. Just select how many to run off and keep one of those copies at her house, put the original either with a lawyer or in the safety deposit box. Just make sure it's locked away somewhere so no one can easily take her major assets. If she has a checkbook, she needs to decide whether or not she wants to continue writing checks or stop and just put it away for future use. If not, the bank can properly dispose of the checks for her.
It would also be very good for her to have a POD account established. Just wait most of her money into that but make sure the funeral home is the beneficiary so they get their share of the money first. What they decide to do with it is up to them when they've gotten their share.
Another smart move she can do is to not carry cash. I went digital long ago and I just recently started an able account. This will help me spend less and save more because I don't see the money in the regular savings account. You may want to look at what's available in her particular situation, in Ohio you can have up to $100,000 from what I saw on the Ohio stable website. This will help people on federal benefits to be able to cover what their insurance won't. It's hard not being able to get what you need from a doctors prescription just because your insurance won't cover it. This leaves you without things you need and add all that up you become miserable at some point because the things you need aren't covered by insurance and you can't afford out-of-pocket costs. This is what able accounts or four and maybe you can help her check with her bank to see if she would even be eligible for an able look out in her state.
Another thought is to see if she'll invest in an interest bearing CD. These are very secure just like the able accounts. Just look around at her situation and see how you can find other ways to help her stay safe from vultures. Vultures sometimes drive through neighborhoods looking for signs of people in trouble and they may sometimes read the obituaries to see if any potential targets recently lost someone and then make their move. Vultures are very clever, but cleverly stupid because they always get caught sooner or later.
Whatever your friend has that means anything to her, she really needs to protect it and even make sure she has a legal will. As for her home and any cars, perhaps you may look into a TOD account and see if it's available in that state. She may want to do that now before it's too late if she's in her right mind. If not, she's sitting duck for someone to come in and make their move and the coerced her out of everything and rob rightful heirs of their rightful inheritances. That's not to say that her family won't necessarily fight back, many families more times than not will fight back and often win if they can prove their case. Some estate lawyers work on contingency. Some of them even specialize in insurance matters regarding survivors and they are deceased loved ones if there's a dispute. I strongly agree on getting her somehow protected now if she still happens to be in her right mind. If not, she'll probably need some other form of protection to prevent potential vultures from making their move to take everything through whatever means possible including abuse and coercion.
There are so many ways people take advantage of our elders it's that funny. Too many times families don't find out about it until after the person dies and things are amiss with things regarding inheritance. Sometimes you sense something's wrong but you can't put your finger on it. Don't ignore that feeling because if you're sensing something's just not right, you're probably right though you just don't know what at that time. Give it time and it'll reveal itself because sooner or later it will be revealed and the perpetrator will be caught.
I can't agree more on protecting ourselves and our elders, in this day we really should. We never know when someone may try something on us and the best practice you get is when you're younger because you have more time to practice up to the time you'll most need those skills.
Now, in reply to something someone mentioned about people coming out of the woodwork, not every family situation is the same. In the case of abusive parents whose children had to be out of the picture through no choice of their own but for safety's sake, those are going to be the ones who are legit for starters. In the case of my family, we had money because my dad worked for Ford his whole life. After my rescue at 13, there came a very hard time I could no longer be in the picture for my own safety and my sisters murder hit the papers and is on public record somewhere. I was almost next. Both of my abusers died, my mom who was on dad's life insurance policy until nine years after she died all because dad refused to update his beneficiary after mom died. I didn't know this until after he died and I started finding things out including the one about him having Alzheimer's, no guardian, no will and suddenly changing his life insurance beneficiary to someone I don't know only three weeks before he died when he was already on his last leg. I know someone must've coerced him because there's no way he could've been competent to make that decision. A whole lot happened behind my back and I happen to be the only surviving blood relative. Right now I have a pending case and have since become my dad's fiduciary. I'm currently being helped him through this time by a special lawyer trained in this area. When you don't make proper arrangements when you can, bad things can happen to you later.
Not everyone who comes out of the cracks is entitled to anything. This is why things must be set carefully in place and protections against overturning those arrangements must be firmly in place. This is why when you have wealth, you really need specific legal protections for times when people come out of the cracks because not all of them are entitled to anything. Rightful heirs will come out of the cracks for sure, but steal from the wrong person and you have a war on your hands because some rightful heirs won't back down when they know they're in the right and they'll fight it out to the end, especially if those rightful heirs are already struggling economically and financially because their parents for example were so greedy they wouldn't even provide for their own children. Now in the case of survivors of childhood abuse, everything should go to the survivors of the abusers, especially if the case hit the headlines and the survivors are able to prove it and the fact they were abused by the now deceased. Documentation is very vital especially during times when everything must be sorted out
If your neighbor's good stuff gets thrown out with the junk someday, so what? You have nothing to do with this.
If you feel your "guardian angel" urge creeping up, remember this: If you help her pare down, she will (at some point) turn on you and be openly resentful that you interfered. And probably accuse you of stealing from her.
And because she has money, at least one relative will come out of the woodwork when she is ailing or dead. You don't need that total stranger accusing you of stealing, either.
If you want to do a good deed, your neighborhood, county or church has plenty of opportunities. Food bank, soup kitchen, after-school tutoring, animal shelter, Meals On Wheels, etc.
"It is what I call the placeholder phenomenon. Other people see, watch, and even care. As they see her with you, their concerns are alleviated with your presence.
Oh, she is okay, she has a friend helping her-and all that."
I think this phenomenon is present in many of the inter-family squabbles and arguments when one person is providing caregiving and the siblings step back and avoid participation.
Your neighbor has, in a mental illness sort of way, asked for your help by misinterpreting that you were offering to be POA. The mental illness part is not only the OCD of hoarding, but can be anything and needs to be treated. You say, but at times she seems fine-is fun to be around? Schizophrenia, bipolar, etc.
Experienced this issue you are dealing with, and aside from the worry and constant tug at your heartstrings, you may not have a choice but to be pulled in further. Soon, your reputation can be hurt for trying to be a friend. And the friend will go without the help she could get by services overall-and let me explain why. In situations like this, no good deed goes unpunished.
It is what I call the placeholder phenomenon. Other people see, watch, and even care. As they see her with you, their concerns are alleviated with your presence.
Oh, she is okay, she has a friend helping her-and all that. But you can only do so much-no one knows that. Until a hoarder comes to the attention of services, such as animal control, others cannot come in to help. It is a team effort. Your role could be to bring in help. It is sad, but real help can look sad and unfair-but she cannot go on safely without help.
Take some time off by saying: 'Friend, I cannot risk getting ill from fleas, so until this is taken care of, I will be taking a break.
Then you decide: Do you have the time to offer to help treat the fleas? Buy her products (at her expense), be sure she can do this? Take her out of the house for 4+ hours? Finding cat feces on the bottom of her slippers, do you want her in your house? Willing to treat fleas in your house, car? Just an example-happened to me.
It happens gradually.
Then, I don't know your friend, but how is her driving? I was advised to not drive with her-but she would insist-me, actually risking my life. "They" took her away, took her car away, her hoard was in the dumpsters, she is at board and care. The first was to get the animals out-and because others really care about the welfare of animals, that was accomplished first. She never got the surgery needed to help her walk better. The pain meds got in the way.
Do what is right. First, for your health/safety. Then, for your friend. imo.
This board and the responses made that very clear!
But now...
The hoard has a flea infestation and the cats are getting very sick from it.
Do not want to think what will happen now...
Yikes.
I wanted to bring you up to date. I did, as promised, suggest that the boyfriend and I each have the name of a relative, her lawyer, and POA.
She interpreted this as an offer to become her POA. She says she has no family.
I had to politely decline. I don't know her all that well and just don't want that much responsibility. It will have to just sand by and let official functions take their course. In the meantime, we will continue to go for coffee, give each other rides, chat about life, etc.
Thank you to everyone!
Now the person has at least 60 boxes in the basement and buys a replacement when he can't find what he wants.
Stay out of it. You will regret getting involved. It is not your problem. If her hoarding encroaches on your property, then call the local gov't until you get a response from them. It is not your problem.
She will probably just brush it off as fine. There is nothing you can do further at that point. If you think there is a health issue (hygiene because bathroom isn't functioning, etc.) or she is unsafe where piles can fall on her, etc. -- THen you can call APS and that will be anonymous.
If she goes for surgery; you could always ask to speak with hospital social worker and make them aware of the living conditions, mobility concerns as a concerned friend and neighbor. Ask them to place your observations on record.
Thats all you can do.