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Thanks in advance for your answers.


My grandfather passed around mid 2018. My aunt who he lived with and took care of him was the co-owner and beneficiary on all of his accounts so my understanding is that 100% of all his accounts default to her once he passed. There was no estate, trusts, or will ever set up. Supposedly he once wrote a hand written will but it was never notarized so it holds no legal value.


My mother is below poverty level and her only income is about $800 per month from social security.


My aunt wants to give my mother around 80k however that would cause my mom to lose certain public benefits she currently recieves like Medicaid, premium free Medicare part A & B, food stamps, and HUD subsidized housing.


In order to maintain my mothers benefits and not put her in a worse financial position than she is currently in, could my aunt simply wire the money to my account and then I could pay off my mothers car, any small debt she has, and moving forward when she needs something I can buy it for her online and have it shipped to her deducting it from that money?


My understanding is that if my aunt did this she would have to file a gift tax return since the amount exceeds 15k however it would not be subject to taxes unless she exceeds the lifetime exemption gift amount which is over 5 million.


Thoughts?

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WHY EVEN ASK THIS QUESTION? I WOULD DELETE THIS SO YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE THIS WAS FOR "MOM." YOUR AUNT IS GIFTING "YOU" $80K PERIOD, MOM IS NOT GETTING ANYTHING. YOU CAN NOW HELP MOM PAY OFF HER SMALL DEBT. BUT YEAH DON'T EVEN BRING UP MOM'S NAME, THIS IS A GIFT FOR YOU FROM YOUR AUNT PERIOD.... DON'T PUT ANY IN MOM'S ACCOUNT JUST OPEN A SEPERATE ONE IF YOU NEED TO KEEP TRACK. GOOD LUCK AND REMEMBER THIS SITE IS FOR HELPING OUR LOVED ONE'S NOT FINANCIAL SERVICES, JUST SO YOU KNOW FOR THE FUTURE.
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I thought when we went to the "new" AC moderaters were going stop posts being posted to that went into the thousand replies Wish there was a button to ask that a post be stopped.
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Please stop this post, as Merlin asked. The OP asks no questions on caregiving only financial issues of which he has received plenty of answers. A majority of answers have been to see an attorney. That is what he needs. Just as we are not medical professionals who diagnose on this forum, we are not attorneys and shouldn’t be giving out free legal advice.

Not once has OP asked a question about his mother’s health needs or sought info about hands on care or coping with living with an elderly person.

His mother is 65 & lives independently. 65 is hardly elderly, IMO.
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Lymie61 Jan 2019
I'm not sure it's fair to base his mothers needs on her age, I have seen people here asking questions who are caring for spouses in their late 50's-60's, unfortunately some medical issues and certainly cognitive issues aren't limited to people over a certain age. I also have to take some exception to the stance that because this doesn't deal with a particular medical or "health" need it somehow doesn't belong here. I have often seen questions relating solely to Medicaid guidelines, qualification etc, I have also seen several simply dealing with family financial feuds and dynamics and personally I can attest that the financial side both medical and housing/living expenses can be a very stressful, confusing and time consuming as well as a big part of caring for our elders. This is one of the places I would come to collect info, experiences and suggestions for much of that stuff. It has been my understanding that this is a place to go for all of those things relating to any piece of the dynamic that is caring for a LO as well as a safe place to just share and vent, this post/question is listed or tagged under 'Caregiver Forum', 'Elder Law' and 'Questions' which seem the most appropriate categories to me and broad enough to include financial and Medicaid questions, I haven't looked at all the available categories so maybe I'm wrong but I don't see where the OP has done anything wrong here by asking the question and it seems to me we should support and welcome everyone unless of course they are being abusive to others (which I don't see in this question), we all have the option to skip over any question, not engage on a subject or politely offer a contrary view but we shouldn't be discouraging anyone who is legitimately looking for help from trying to find that here.
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Someone please stop this post... the person is asking for legal advice and should be redirected to a lawyer
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Shane1124 Jan 2019
Agree. Hoping the admins see that OP issues are not related to care giving. OP is not seeking advice on any hands on care issues only financial.
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If auntie is agreeable to this is first question - there should be no problem because auntie is giving you money & through the generousity of your heart you are spending on your mom

Check about that handwritten will because that is a holographic will & does not need to be notarized or witnessed but must be 100% in the person's handwriting & not typed/printed off in any way - so check where grandfather lived what the law is & how it is written but if he had auntie on those accounts then they are hers
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Seek out an elder law attorney.
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Merlin1 Jan 2019
I agree
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Pay for a consult with an attorney who specializes in elder law. You can make huge missteps here that will negatively impact you and your mother.

It's worth the couple hundred dollars to get professional advice.
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Hi I hope I can offer assistance, but PLEASE check with the necessary US authorities. Your Mother can be gifted money no problem, however she will have to spend most of it (& keep proof that it has been sent) to retain her Social Security. My advice would be for you or your aunt to keep ownership of the money, and you can pay her expenses as needed. It is not a problem to have your bills paid by another person, it is when there is a large amount in the name of the person receiving social security etc. That is when they would would stop payments
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Lymie61 Jan 2019
I think you mean her Medicaid and or state assistance, right? The way I understand it anyway, once we reach retirement age (I think her her mom has reached that) we can collect SS benefits and Medicare benefits without loosing them based on current income. It is confusing of course and not always easy to clarify because both types of benefits can come from SS or at least are labeled that way... I just wanted to be clear here that I think we are talking about 2 things, she wouldn't loose her SS or Medicare in any case here it's her Medicaid and Assistance benefits that are dependent on assets and income, the SS is actually income here. Hope that made sense but your point is a good one.
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If you are paying off the car that is your mother's assett, and it is worth over $2000, that will cause you to lose Medicaid in most states, or you will have to Spend Down...pay out of pocket...an amount equal to the value of the car ( over $2k)...so pay twice.

If she sells the car to the Aunt, who insures it and let's you use it, that is ok, so long as profit off car keeps assett under $2000. Note: Selling price should be in reasonable range. Look up what a dealer would pay and print it out. Selling to family is considered "an arms length deal" and may trigger Medicaid to Claw Back...require Medicaid be paid amount of the difference between actual value and sweetheart deal to a close family member..since tax payers are still paying Mom's Medical.

Again, know the rules and follow them. Otherwise now, or when a major expense hits, like nursing home, or after her death, the Claw Back bill will come due, and you won't have $$ to pay it.
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Work with someone who can set up two trusts. One for Medical and one for living expenses. There is a way to set up trusts through insurance company, or perhaps bank or Senior Law Attorney. There are limits as to how much can be paid and for what. For example, Trust might pay car payment and maintenance and $75 a month for gas.

Living expense Trust could help even pay for a trip for her to visit family, hairdresser, car, gas, as well as TP, and things food stamps won't cover.

Your Aunt should control the trust and have specific instructions for who is Trustee if she dies or is unable...and how funds can be spent.

I know this as I once worked with an insurance company that set up such trusts, usually via an annuity, for clients with children with disabilities that would require lifelong care, or assistance to obtain some Independence.

It must be disclosed, but if set up proper you may lose some benefit funds, but not all. Call around and ask about fees. Some organizions charge very little, but get the balance when your Mom passes. So do your research.

Again there is a legal way to help provide for your Mom. Perhaps part of the funds could pay for quality Long Term Care Insurance. Then Medicaid Claw Back at her death is not a big issue. You need someone with experience...so ask how many they have done for people in your Mom's situation.

Also call DHS and find out at what $ point you have to report changes to income...or others/trust paying expenses. Also max amount at which point she loses benefits.

How much is car worth? Paying it off nay put her over benefit limit. Maybe Aunt should buy it or give you $ to buy it & maintain it.

I keep max earnings calculation for extra help & food stamps on paper inside my kitchen cabinet, for easy reference.

IA states it on each renewal or benefits change. IL did not! You may need an advocate from Center on Aging or State Representative's office.

Agencies are often paranoid about fraud attempts...or don't know how to calculate without letting their computer do it. Be persistent. Do it properly.

You might lose some benefits briefly, have a spend down amount each month, using $ from trust for medical costs...and document it!!! More critical is not losing housing benefits! Hard to get those back!
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As far as your Aunt gifting the money how that is handled would be between her and her accountant. Now as far as gifting you the money, it would then be yours to use as you please. My mother is on Medicaid and we from time to time help her out with some expenses. This does not count toward her income or effect her status. Now if we were to gift her directly a sum of money or say pay for an expensive vacation that would certainly effect her status. I don't see this as subverting the system, it is mearly helping out our elders. If your mother should die before the money is all used up I doubt you would be expected to return it. As I said it is a gift to you to use as you please. I apologize for some of the negative posts on here. I did not feel that you were trying to find a way to scam the government. You are correct if your aunt gifts the money to your Mom it will screw up all her benefits at least for awhile and just based on the paperwork involved you want to avoid that.
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I agree, this thread has gotten nasty. So at this point, I think Elmo has gotten all the info we are able to give him as lay people. He really needs to get a lawyer who knows Medicaid law and taxes. Some have a CPA with their firm.

Good Luck Elmo and get back to us in how it all turns out. We may learn something we didn't know.
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I keep seeing Special Needs Trust mentioned. This trust is set up for Disabled people. As in physically and mentally. You cannot file for it if 65 or over. It is limited in how it can be used. Cannot be used for food or lodging or utilities you can get help in paying. If you get Medicaid of any kind, the trust reverts to them upon death to offset the cost of your care. If, there is anything left, that goes to the beneficiary.

My nephew has been disabled from birth. His mother passed and left an insurance policy. When he filed for SSD, we were told by Social Services to obtain a Special Needs Trust to protect the 50k. The lawyer cost 5k, which we were allowed to use the insurance money for. It was to take a year but there was a glitch and it took two. Primarily, the only thing I can use this trust for is his care when and if needed. Things that aren't covered by Medicaid or Medicare. The lawyer had to file with the County Court and their was a hearing with a Judge. My nephew was present. The Judge had to OK the trust. So, its not something that is automatic. And if Elmo's Mom is past the age of 65, she can't apply for one. Age related disabilities are not covered by a Special Needs Trust. As it says its for people with Special Needs. Like Downs Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy, etc.
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Would it be a problem if your Aunt gifts it to you? You can go to an Elder Law Attorney, has to be Elder Law, and he/she can put it in a legal Medicaid trust, you would be the agent and then you could spend it on mom without mom losing any of her benefits. It will cost to go to the Elder Law Attorney but be far less than trying to figure out what to do with the money and put mom in jepardy.
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I totally appreciate your situation and I can't believe the nasty responses you've received! What you are trying to do is not cheating the system -- it's being smart, and any elderly care advisor would commend you for it. I was actually lead to your question after reading a previous article on this website about protecting your money -- https://www.agingcare.com/articles/strategies-to-protect-money-from-medicaid-175434.htm
It's a pretty good article and may help in some way. Good luck!
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You need not worry about affecting your mother's eligibility for government benefits if the money goes to you vs directly to your mother. It is only assets in which your mother has a legal interest that are countable for government benefits (Medicaid, etc.) purposes.

By the way, a hand-written will is still valid even if not notarized or witnessed, although in your aunt's case, since all your grandfather's assets passed to her outside of probate (as jointly titled accounts), the will would have no effect in any case.
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ElmoHongZito Jan 2019
Thank yoh Gabriel. I appreciate the clarification.

Doesn’t the legality of a non-notarized/non-witness will vary by state?

I know this doesn't apply to us because my aunt was joint owner on his accounts. But thought I would ask anyway. Thanks
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Do things legally. Have your aunt pay off those debts so the money doesn’t have to be transferred to the account. Maybe have a monthly stipend From a trust account set up so it doesn’t exceed her monthly income level requirements. Too much money too fast can lead people to abuse it. If it’s for your mothers care, that’s the safer route to go.
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I agree with the person who said this question has been asked and answered. Seek out the advice of an attorney.... check out your local Alzheimer’s Association to see if they have a list of lawyers who have knowledge of Medicaid rules.
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Keep in mind. Large amount can be given as a gift to you. You may need to file IRS for 3250 notifying the gift. No tax involved. The person if us resident need to notify IRS so that the amount counted towards life time giving. Limit this year is 10 million. No tax due. Failure to do this the penalty is heavy.
Yes proper planning is. Needed to care for our loved ones. One need to do 10 years ahead. Plan 60 on these details.
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Have you thought about the tax ramifications YOU would face? YOU would have to pay taxes on the money given to you. Can you afford the taxes on 80K? Yes the taxes could be taken out of the money given but that reduces the money by quite a bit.
Why not give your Aunt the information on what needs to be paid off and she can do that directly so you do not get the money at all. (and while she/you are at it my house needs a few repairs as well...kidding)
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Nancynurse Jan 2019
There isn't any tax on the money gifted to someone. It was only counted against the lifetime gift amount from the giver. That used to be about 5 million until this lastest tax law change and then the inheritance tax went away.
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I care for my mother in law. The kids and grandkids contribute to her care. Every year they deposit money into an account not owned by her. All her care needs are met from that account. A detail account is submitted to all kids every year. The head of the family needs to be transparent. Care decision is different from financial decisions.
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Yes. Your aunt can wire the money to your account, leaving your mothers name off completely, which means she has to be able to trust you completely to do the right thing for your mom. Politicians do it all the time.
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Another thing to consider if mom comes into money, she may have to pack BACK money/benefits she has received, as well.
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You could ask your aunt to take over your mother's bills and pay down over time.
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Elmo,
I am not going to judge the situation. IF you do things legally (whether or not they are morally correct or others approve) you have the law on your side.

Your aunt would be the legal owner of whatever was in your grandfathers' AND HER account. She CO-OWNED it. She would not need to pay any inheritance taxes because it was hers in the first place.

Your mother, (your aunts sister) has income below poverty level. She is on public assistance and being supported by the government (tax payers).
You want to "shelter" the money for her (so she doesn't loose her gov benefits) but spend it to improve her life. Life is not easy on GA and there is often not enough money to pay for everything.

Well, you can't change her apartment (which would be subsidized by the gov), or else she'll loose the benefit.
You can't pay off the car or else it will be considered a "gift" and benefits would be reduced or stopped. I suppose you could pay the payment each month and have it slip under the gov radar. She could then save the amount of the car payment. (That is cheating.)
You could upgrade her furniture. I wouldn't think gov Social Service workers go to the house.
You could supplement the meager amount of food she's able to get on food stamps, so at least she could eat like a queen.
I would imagine you could give her wardrobe a boost with a few new clothes but no fancy name brands that would attract attention.

So, really, what can "better her life" without blowing her benefits? It doesn't really matter WHO gives her the money (you or auntie), she can only accept what is legal.

Since your mom is collecting SS ($800.) could you figure out how much the gov is subsidizing, then figure out how long 80K would last. (for example gov pays $1000. in subsidies/month, the 80K would last 6 years 8 months) She could live well for that long or continue on gov benefits with you supplying what she desires.

With the exception of the Special Needs Trust, I don't see a (legal) way out. I'm sure an elder attorney would have more knowledge in these matters.
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ElmoHongZito Jan 2019
Thanks for your input. I am not sure paying off her car will penalize her since I am the co-buyer on the car and I put down a hefty 5k down payment of my own money 2 years ago to get her into a reliable car. This was before she had applied for any government benefits. It was my promise for her quitting smoking which I later found she never really quit. Before that she was driving a tiny used 2002 saturn piece of junk for probably a decade which I also helped her get into a year or 2 into my first job out of college.

Fancy clothing is not something she cares about. She likes clothing from Kohls and is as happy as a child in a candy store with that place.

No need to upgrade furniture in her apartment. Not sure if you have seen what a subsidized 1 bedroom studio looks like.

Bottom line- her subsidized housing is only partially subsidized; she still pays monthly rent over $200. Her medicaid and medicare free premium gives us the benefit of doubt that she is covered from a health perspective although she is not the best about going to the doctor. Her food stamps is about $100 per month. You do the numbers on that one. “Eating like a queen” is not the goal here.

The $800 in traditional SS retirement she recieves is not making ends meet which is why she embarrassingly asks me or my sister for cash every month just to get by before the next SS check comes in.

Improving her quality of life right now is her getting to the end of the month not worrying about asking my sister for “gas money”.

Could she get off benefits, then use 80k to live the same lifestyle that she lives now and then reapply for government benefits again once the money is gone? Sure she can. Then she is right back to the same or worse circumstances then she is now. Most likely worse due to inflation. Her $800 per month will buy less.

Would I prefer that the 80k be a supplement to make ends meet every month for as long as we can make it last? Yes and this if I can accomplish that while abiding by the law, that is what we are going to do regardless of how many people that bothers on an online forum.
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I sort of think this is all for naught anyway as Elmo stated Aunt’s lawyer told her to hold off. Any good lawyer or CPA would probably think long and hard about putting their client (his aunt) in jeopardy by proceeding with anything that may look improper. Not likely they will give that money to Elmo, is my guess.
Hopefully aunt’s attorneys will work with aunt to provide for her sister legally & will not jeopardize her benefits even though any gift given to mom will affect Medicaid.
This is all conjecture- it’s Elmo’s playing against the attorneys now - his aunt’s attorneys - and I will bet it won’t materialize as attorneys won’t jeopardize their law license recommending something illegal.
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ElmoHongZito Jan 2019
Your entire post is irrelevant. My aunt is not working with any attorneys. I spoke With an elderly law attorney myself and she said to hold off because the end of the year was so close and it would take a little while to get her all the info she needed, work a plan, and implement.
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Talk to an atty, the sad part is they will get you for about 2500.00 for the consult and setting up of paperwork, but with 80k thats nothing. If you can be somehow held accountable through a TRUST it should not effect her. (Since the gift is to HER and not you.) That keeps it from affecting her income and you will be held legally accountable that the funds are spent to her benefit. You can also draw up a caregiver agreement where she pays you xxx amount (and if you look at how much a pro caregiver costs you can see that that amount can be quite high) if she wishes to share.

DO WHATEVER it takes to NOT lose those benefits she already has and yes there are work arounds. I know nothing about taxes.
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Marcia, i have to respond to your claim that President Trump doesn't pay taxes. That is flat out untrue. He pays multi millions in taxes personally. He also employs 10s of thousands of people and if you think an employer doesn't pay taxes you are sadly misinformed. Oh he also doesn't collect welfare.

When someone is asking how to get 80k for a welfare recipient to improve the quality of life without loosing the taxpayers aid they receive is fraud. You can cut that pie any direction you want but it still slices to the same fraud. If it wasn't, you would accept the gift, file your taxes and report it to whomever welfare recipients report to. You would not filter it through someone so it didn't show up as an asset for you, even though it is.

Maybe you have never experienced a hungry child because their parents make to much money to get aid, even though dad only makes minimum wage and mom can't find affordable daycare so she stays home to raise her child, but then is faced with options to buy food or pay the power bill. Its called the working poor. You are very blessed that you have never seen that kind of heartbreak, but it happens everyday in many households in the USA and people that take advantage of the system help create that situation, so when someone wants to travel and have a car paid for and not pay their own way, it is criminal. People work multiple jobs and don't have what this woman has, am I and a few others the only ones that think something is very wrong with that.
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anonymous594015 Jan 2019
I do not believe that is true. But my point is that people who come to this forum and ask what is the best way to handle my finances for Medicaid are often chastised for trying to beat the system. There are legal steps you can take that will allow your family to keep money while your loved one receives Medicaid. I will bet you that most people who come to this forum are not wealthy. If they were, they would be consulting their estate planning lawyers and not this forum. Actually, they probably wouldn't even need Medicaid.

If you are a real estate developer in New York City and you pay taxes, you need to fire your accountant. Mr. Trump was correct in the debate. Mrs. Clinton was a senator for years and proposed exactly no laws requiring that more taxes be paid by people like Mr. Trump. And we are all fine with that. And we're snarling at people who are just asking what they should do to protect the little bit of assets they have.

If you are truly worried about the working poor pay attention to how wealth is being distributed in this country. We shouldn't be fighting with each other over the crumbs we're being left.
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I find it very interesting that this poster wants to use tax avoidance vehicles in order to keep her mother on welfare. This poster wants taxpayers to continue to pay for her mother's food, housing, prescriptions, etc. This poster does not need caregiving advice but rather the advice of an attorney and accountant. This poster has not made her mother her dependent and is not claiming her mother as a dependent on her taxes. Is it any wonder that this poster does not like the answers given? People who want to commit welfare fraud seldom do like advice that costs them the free ride they've been given; they feel entitled to game the system.

Next time this poster - or anyone like this poster - asks our forum about how to stay on welfare while benefiting from a financial windfall, I hope someone will hit the report button.

Happy New Year to all the hardworking, honest, and selfless caregivers. Peace.
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ElmoHongZito Jan 2019
First of all, where did you get “tax avoidance vehicles” from? Special needs trust has nothing to do with avoiding taxes. Get your insults straight.

What I am trying to accomplish is not fraud and that’s why there are legal vehicles for these type of situations that I am trying to learn more about. The fact that you do not like this reality does not give you the right to accuse people of commiting fraud while mocking them just because they are not a caregiver in your eyes.

You publicly make false accusations instead contributing usefull information to the thread. That sounds more like something that should be reported to the forum in my eyes.
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So if your aunt wanted the money distributed by the end of the year, what happened, as we are now in 2019?

Posters have advised you to see an elder attorney numerous times throughout this thread and your previous one in mid-December. Why haven't you done so?
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ElmoHongZito Jan 2019
I have spoken to one who advised me to tell my aunt to hold off. I plan on speaking with them again soon.
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