1992 : Mother was 52 y/o and began hoarding in her apt. I was married and did not live with her but was concerned about the clutter building up. Told to mind my business.
1998 : Clutter is at uncomfortable level. Personality is argumentive, combative, refuses help and once became physically aggressive. I went no contact for one year after being attacked.
2004 : Full scale Hoarding. Refuses help and denies there is a problem. Has diabetes, high blood pressure and atherosclerosis. Accusing people of stealing. Not paying bills properly. Poor eating habits.
2008 : Hoarding has reached a dangerous level. Pathways developing. She did allow me to clear the pathways a little while angrily protesting at the same time. Health condition still poor. Still refusing help.
2009-2016 : Hoarding continues. Surgery to put stent in leg. Proactively caregiving in as much as she will allow (Doctor Visits, Grocery Shopping, Outings, Bill Pays, Tax Prep and Home Cooked Meals). Accused me of stealing. Suspicious of everyone. Dr gave referral for neurologist and she refused, saying she’s not crazy. Stress has now made me sick.
2017 : The very thing I thought could and would happen did. She developed Pneumonia and Sepsis and almost died. I had to get her out of the apt which was almost impossible because of the Hoarded condition. Ambulance took her to hospital and she was saved from death. She stayed in SNF for 30 days and discharged to me. She was admitted to the hospital 2 more times for Sepsis and high Blood Sugar. She is living in my home with my husband and college age children.
2017-2018 : Mother is 78 y/o now. Currently still living in my home and it is a nightmare. Demanding, unappreciative, insulting, rude. Given three meals per day and snacks in between yet tells people we starve her. Ordering from catalogs and the clutter is creeping up. We hide any incoming catalogs now. Demands to go home but can’t because it’s not safe. Eats everything she can to elevate her sugar level so we hide snacks in bedroom. Goes to store and buys junk food then looks surprised and questions why I am giving her insulin. Is incontinent (bladder) for now, no major problem dealing with that right now. I feel it’s time for a long term care facility. My health is deteriorating. My family nucleus is deteriorating. She’s refusing to go into professional care. The hoarded apt still has to be cleaned out and I am too weak to do it now. I rented a storage unit to store some valuable things while going through the cleaning process. I have a POA for health only, she won’t do a POA for finance and I am currently applying for Medicaid through their trust program because her income is a notch over the acceptable amount. Just overwhelmed by all of this. Maybe someone can make suggestions on best way to handle this. Thanks
of Dads caretaker son,my brother,who never intended to go to any NH...but after
Brothers Funeral and Dad too much to care for incontinent,falling etc. I said whatever it costs as Dad only had 12,000 in his checking act....and he was admitted to a home to go on pending Medicaid as soon as I did a Funeral
Trust with his 10,000....it took two mos. all done by accident as I knew nothing
other than you must only have 2000 in your account...get the hoarding property
sold,declared, unoccupiable...then perhaps with Meds she will comply and never know why....how old is she Dad was 97...and very compliant..i visited everyday..
APS saved me from the initial call I made to a NH when I started panicing..
as the Assisted living just grabbed my Dads clothes from the ER due to my calling them from the phone book....I knew nothing about a senior having to be assessed by the hospital or Doc and I assume a vigilant nurse in ER was watching this lady attempting to take Dad after I wrote a check for 850.00
in the rooms in Er as she looked at Dads urine specimen, are you ready!!!!!
the check was towards 4800.00 per mo at an assisted living which Dad was way way beyond...long story short dad was kept in Hospital for 2 weeks
luckily with influenza and UTI...…..t.hen properly readied for long term care and the social workers found a NH for him...by the way priced at 7000.00 per mo
unbeknownst to me but going in with Medicaid.Pending,nosupplemantal ins. so after 20days full payrate.....161.00.. with the adult protective services
representative sitting with me as the first lady from the assisted living had taken my 850.00 from me as a downpayment illegally, she still managed to get her
recruiting of Dad up to the social services of the hospital never giving up recruiting my dad for her residence......IMAGINE THAT... I got half my money back after four weeks and I called the OMBUDSMAN...…...so APS is not always
bad they step in so you do not have to be the only decider...……..who is getting your Mothers social security now?is the Hoarding palace paid for?Is it worth anything?...or will it be condemned...…………………..
until he died 43/4 mos. later....
My mother is the same as your minus the diabetic. However, there are so many things she is not suppose to eat but she does and I let her. She is the one who has to pay the price and she does! I try telling her what should not eat but it just started a fight, therefore, I have learned to pick my battles. Futhermore, I tried to help with her finances but she wasn't haven't it. Because she knew more than me, she was better than me; she had all the power when I moved in and believe me she let me know it to.
I just let go...now she has no money except her SS. So, now she can not afford to pay all the house bills, so I pay them. She does help, but I pay most of them and all of the up keep! Simply by just letting go! There is a book you might want to read called "Letting go" by David Hawkins, MD, Ph.D. It has nothing to do with dealing with dementia or hoarding. But it has helped me.
My mother is also hoarder. I just started throwing things out things that she would not miss, than I started to get her involved asking her questions like: what are you going to use this for? (This being whatever it was at the time) When are you going to use this? You get the idea. It worked for awhile but than I hit a wall & my mother started to fighting about it, so I let go. Months later she started to throw things away or donate things.
I know this doesn't sound like a good idea but it worked for me. You have to use some comman sense ( not let things go to far one way or the other)
However, you have gotten some good advice here. This is just another way to think about it.
There seems to be a common thread here about having a narc, hoarding & abusive mother,
so your not alone.
I pray that God helpes you find your way out of this mess and brings peace to you in Jesus' name. Amen
!y but fear she'll be denied. I live the same miserable life minus the hoarding. I hope you find answers. I'll be following. Good luck.
2) DPS will not take license at least in TX
....been there done that, and we wonder why these seniors are “allowed” to drive? Well, it’s bc legally kids can not legally take their keys.
Final course of action is to see an attorney for legal ramifications and evict her.
To add to that, my sister is also a narcissist. My mom and sister hated each other. Have you ever been around two of them at the same time? A TRULY mind blowing experience that kept me on pins and needles for 50 years. The depths they would go to “get back” at each was deeper than hell.
Both of them tried to run my life, told me what to do and bullied me. They both intimidated me until I decided enough was enough.
I loved my mom because she was my mom. But I didn’t like her very much. Luckily for me, she moved out of state when I was 13 and I only had to visit her twice a year. But I did have to live with my sister, ugh.
My story is like most of the others so I won’t go into detail, but this is what I did/had to do when she couldn’t take care of herself anymore;
She lived in a different state, so it was a little easier for me. We hired a in home non medical care business. There were only 3 employees, so it was quaint and mom could remember them most of the time.
I was driving to her house weekly (3 1/2 hrs one way) to check on her and go to her Dr. appointments. I’d take her out to eat, etc. I had to stay in a hotel because of her hoarding, which got very expensive.
My sister, who resides in yet another state would go to moms twice a year. During her visit in 2017, she attended a Dr’s appointment with mom. ONE appt. I had been to at least 20. She decided (although we were 50/50 in the POA) that she didn’t like mom’s Dr, fired him and found someone else. Mind you, her MD is rated as the best geriatric Doctor in her state!
Sure, you can argue with a narcissist, but it’s a TOTAL waste of time. You can NEVER win, you are ALWAYS WRONG.
I am Bi Polar (just a little dysfunction in my family). I have been through YEARS of therapy and have finally found the right MD and the right meds. I am trying to get my life BEFORE Bi Polar back.
I realized the toll this was taking (because of the years of therapy). I was decomping quickly both mentally and physically. Something I can’t afford to do to my health.
I had already watched my dad die a long and grueling death. I suffered terribly and had a total meltdown. I couldn’t watch again. I had empathy for my mom, but we were never close and she had people with her 24/7. She was safe. (Or at least we thought so... I have another question under Home Care and Elder Abuse. It’s definitely something you should read if you are contemplating hiring help).
Mom sort of apologized, something I never thought I would hear. Something my sister never heard. I forgave her in my head.
Now that she is gone, I have forgiven her in my heart too. That is a MUST for all of us.Guilt? No. I went to moms house for Christmas last year and didn’t go back until July of this year, when we moved her into AL. She died 9 days later after being taken to the ER.
My sister was with her in the hospital. I chose not to go. Mom had suffered a major stroke and would never regain her consciousness.
My sister put the phone by moms ear and I told her I loved her, I’d forgiven her and attributed her for her finer qualities. I told her I would TRY to get along with my sister for she is all the family I have left. I said I knew she was coming back as a butterfly and every time I saw one, I would talk to it as if I was talking to her. I also included some of the things I didn’t like. I apologized to her.
My sister said her color came back, her heavy breathing slowed and her gurgling stopped while on the phone. She passed 6 hours later. After 50 years, I am FINALLY at peace!
PLEASE take care of YOU! Self preservation is just that, SELF!
*There are many self help books available if you cannot afford therapy to help get passed the past. BEST of luck to you.
And oh yes, someone said in this thread about how their narcissistic person "sucked the life" out of them..... that is such an accurate description. Anytime I do anything for myself, my mother who lives with me, acts as if she permitted it, albeit with that curl of her lip and negativity that flows out of her, and on and on, so that after the thing I did for myself, it took a lot of the fun and joy out of it.... and this is me in my 60's ..... no wonder I tried running away when I was 14.... I so clearly remember ...
Been living in my home for a little over a year because she has no family/friend support around her in her home 2-3 hours away... I am "the only one", and know that for HER it is best to have someone looking after her, but for ME, there are not enough anti-anxiety medicines in the world or prilosecs for GI issues caused by anxiety.......and within the first 6-8 months of living here wanted to go shoe-shopping and kept choosing high-heels and made me the "bad guy" telling her no, that if she falls and breaks a hip she'll be in the hospital and nursing home, etc etc.
Same woman who joked about how when she was pregnant with me 60+ years ago she fell down the stairs. .... and another time how she accidentally shocked herself in a socket... tell me she didn't want to end everything
Same woman who when she was first here made it clear she wasn't going to stay here if daughter's boyfriend was in house (nicest guy you would want to meet), and forget about trying to date and bring someone home (me)....
I finally, finally figured out why I was the "golden child", the "perfect child" which everyone in the family was sick of hearing about.... because " I " wasn't the perfect one.... the "perfect one" was my mother - I am merely that "extension of her" - it all makes sense now .... she never encouraged me with any of my jobs... I do contracting .... I gave up a chance a year ago to take a job that paid twice as much and within 2-3 years, I'd be able to retire with house paid off, and a bit of savings, and ironically have had time for her to do things together ..... she's never encouraged me or been happy for me because she does not know how and has no empathy and cares about no one but herself.
I think next time she talks about leaving to go back to her home, I'll take her. And I will write a list of contacts she can have when she runs into trouble.... the number for the taxi, the number for the grocery store for delivery, the number of some local home care agencies, because I will surely make sure the car is removed... there is nooo way she can be driving. I was partially worried about her going to her home and my telling her firmly that when she is ill, she will have to find her way to the doctor and do all of these other things because she said she is fine on her own, and already know that she would let others think that "poor her, her daughter won't help" ..... and if she does go to her house, then so be it.... I hope to have another 30 years left in my life, BUT, maybe I won't, maybe it will be a year, maybe a week, none of us knows, but I want my children to know that I am there for them, too, not 100% for my mother.... and I want them to know it's ok to enjoy life and live it to the fullest - I lost my husband/their father when I was 44 and they were teenagers... mom has just about "sucked me dry" and I want to have fun and happiness and good health with the rest of however long I live and participate in my kids' lives whenever we can get together.
Oh and now I guess it is time for earphones and netflix yet again :) Good nite all... thanks for letting me vent... I raise my glass of wine to all who are in this boat!
p.s. You know, it isn't my mother I hate.... it's my taking so so long to figu
As soon as your mother has the slightest bit of distress or her blood pressure goes up or blood sugar is out of whack, call 911 and have them transport her to the ER. When she gets there after they do their initial evaluation, step out of the room and let them know that you WILL NOT be taking her home because you are no longer able to care for her at home, and that they need to find placement for her in a Nursing Facility IMMEDIATELY. Refuse to take her home. Walk out if you have to.
This is a little secret to fast-tracking placement. Your mother will be mad at you, but she will adjust. You have to take care of yourself before you can take care of anyone else.
Yes, the secret is that the family has to abandon them to get care.
As long as the hospital thinks there is a family member available to care for them, they will dump them onto that relative.
Your mom is on the road to the hospital again with her poor health habits. If you can't get her out before that happens, then heed what others have said and don't allow her to be discharged to you. Hospitals employ social workers specifically to deal with these situations when someone is no longer suitable for their previous living situation. You will probably get push back because they have to work harder to solve the problem than just trying to convince you it will be different this time. The most important thing you can do is stand your ground on all fronts, which, by the way, will involve a lot of crying in the bathroom for a while.
Best to you.
I am so done with her. I'll be there in case of emergency. Other than that, she is on her own. She has been mean and manipulative my entire life. At 61, I do not have the energy to deal with her negativity. It started to affect me physically and I put the brakes on it. I am now in counseling paying out of pocket.
possibly then she will stop bullying everyone around her...they feel good when the putdowns start..u are left bereft with low esteem and guilt at not wanting to hurt
an Elder………...anyway looks like NH will not take a violent abusive person anyway..
she may need a mental institution...…………….this will drain you...perhaps u let her get away with this your entire life....its called acting out...
Keep in mind what your and your family's needs and feelings are and how to best care for yourself and them. Be clear that your needs and feelings matter and must be respected... In spite of whatever guilt you may initially feel, it will be better than suffering as you have been, and the guilt will pass as your health and control over your home return... Please take care of you.
Shop (on your own) for both an assisted living apartment and a regular apartment. Inform your mother that she can no longer live with your family. If you don't want to hear an argument, invent a rock solid reason why she can't...you're going back to work full time, you're having the house remodeled...whatever.
Give her a choice, the AL or an apartment on her own (schedule some home care to check in on her and get her a pendant). Once the hard part is done and she's moved out (keep that goal in your mind at all times), you'll still be dealing with the disaster (if she picks the regular apartment) or her rocky adjustment (if she chooses AL - hoarders and narcissist always have rocky adjustments). But, you'll be able to regain your health and sanity and deal with it at arm's length, mostly over the phone.
Once she's out of your house, never let her back in (that was the misstep that launched this journey). You DO NOT have to let the hospital discharge to you. That is what is easiest for them, but you simply refuse and say that there is no one to care for her at my home nor at hers. They cannot discharge unless she can be properly cared for.
Unfortunately, what I've come to understand is that until/unless the Hoarder is mentally or physically "incompetent", then there is literally nothing you can do.
Literally. Nothing.
You can't fix this. You can only protect yourself.
One of the things that has helped me is to look at the Hoarding as an addiction. You can't help an addict unless they want help, and even then sometimes you can't.
I chose to let go of trying to fix or change my Hoarding Mom and to set boundaries that protect me, my sanity and my family. My Hoarding Mom is clear with me that because I think it's unacceptable to live in a home with no working heat, that I am a liar, that I'm trying to steal from her, that I'm not to be trusted, and that it's her life and her choices, and that I can't control her or tell her what to do, like I do everyone else. (Yes, because that makes sense).
Sure, her choices, but it's also my reality.
I have made a choice to limited my contact with Mom. I think long and hard about what contact (kids/visits/phone) I'm OK with and what I'm not. And when. Because she is right - she has "capacity", so she CAN make her own choices. All I can control is how I react/don't react to her mental illness.
Society/your family/neighbors will tell you it's your problem to solve, just go in there and clean it up! I'm telling you that's not true. You didn't create this problem, you can't fix it, you're not responsible for it.
I have and continue (on and off) to see a therapist who helps me work through this. Because I choose not to bring my years of hurt, anger, and resentment into my home and into my relationship with my husband and my kids. I choose to see this as an issue is between my mother and me. And as heartbreaking as it is to know that she cares more about piles of trash than she does about me, I've also (after years of therapy - give yourself time to deal, cope, grieve) come to the decision that even though I can't change her, I can change: 1.) how I choose to look at this; and 2.) where my boundaries are.
I hope this is helpful to you. There are support groups out there filled with people who are also dealing with this. I joined Children of Hoarders and have found comfort and release in knowing I'm not alone.
http://www.childrenofhoarders.com/
You're a good person dealing with someone else's rotten mental illness. I'm sorry you're going through this.
My mil is a hoarder - after having no choice but to move into a retirement home after her husband died, she now can only hoard money - lots of it. For the first time I've seen up close how deep narcissism goes hand in hand with this and it breaks my heart for my husband because it is clear that for both he and his sister what she hoards and what is "hers" is bottom line more important to her than them.
It is an illness and I believe a way to keep the ones who should be closest to you at an emotional distance. I think these are people who did not ever grow emotionally either due to neglect, abuse or a traumatic event.
Best thing to do is what you are doing and what we have to do, and the original poster needs to find a way to do - stay away as much as possible. I'm going to look into that organization. My husband broke away years ago but it definitely affected his self-worth and now having this close by again has brought up some old stuff- but he sees it as an illness and has made very good boundaries.
Good luck, I wish you peace.
Your methodical time line, and the flexible approaches you've been using, and your careful choice of battles - these are all very impressive. You are dealing effectively with an extremely challenging person.
The situation is draining and nightmarish, but not because there's anything wrong that you've done or anything you've left out.
You have sensibly sought advice on how to deal with the financial issues without financial POA. You do have health POA. As part of your correct thinking that her living with you is becoming untenable - though actually as it's making you ill it already is untenable - perhaps revisit what support you might be able to get from her healthcare team towards a placement. That might go as far as forcing an assessment of her mental state without her consent. Is she still willing to attend routine medical appointments?
What's so unfair is that she demands to go home; and you countermand her wishes because if you didn't she'd be at risk; and nobody minds your ignoring her autonomy on that score. She neglects basic self-care for a diabetic, and you're there to catch her, and nobody raises the issue of autonomy there either - you can't ethically call her bluff, let her sugars skyrocket, take her to hospital and refuse to collect her (for the avoidance of all doubt, I'm saying you WOULDN'T and COULDN'T do that). And yet when she refuses to see a neurologist, and refuses to consider a facility, all of a sudden she's in charge. Well, nuts to it. EITHER she is in control as a competent adult; OR she isn't. She can't continue to have it both ways.