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If you are the hands on person, you should be the main POA, with back-ups only if you cannot be there. Putting 2 people as equal POA's means that you both have to be there & agree when exercising your duties. Not convenient and a set-up for delays and stress. You should always consult your lawyer when preparing legal documents, even if its just a POA (make it a durable one) or Health Care Proxy.
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NeedHelpWithMom Jul 2021
Lots of people feel as you do.
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I am now writing from the perspective of the patient who is in the Moderate-Severe stage according to my last Neuropsych Exam in March. My DW and I were setting up a Trust, DPOA's for both Medical and Finances when I was diagnosed with Early Onset ALZ. My DW is my Primary DPOA, and our sons are alternates 1 & 2. We are now facing having to skip my DW and go on with Alternate 2, because our youngest son is moving out of state and for the legal things that need to be changed now, The lawyers won't let me make any decisions, and they say my DW would be in a place of conflict of interest. I am glad we set it up with Alternatives for the reason that just happened. We have discussed things with our two adult sons who are Secondary & tertiary DPOA's as to how we would proceed if one of us was incapacitated, which is me. My access to credit cards and money have been turned off. because of mistakes I made. I did not contest that I didn't make some mistakes. I am just accepting of how life has changed. Always set things up with a lawyer that specializes in Trust's, DPOA's and Eldercare. I am resting easy knowing we made the arrangements we needed to make while I was still competent. I would encourage any readers that have not taken action to complete their legal affairs. Please do so, in your own interest and in the interest of your children.
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NeedHelpWithMom Jul 2021
Yes, someone else mentioned a trust. It’s interesting that there are so many different opinions on what people feel is best for their particular circumstances.
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Let me give you an experience I had once. One of my home health patients was hospitalized, clearly at the end of life with no chance of recovery. She had put ALL FOUR daughters equally as her POA. Three wanted no further treatments but palliative, supportive, comfort. Fourth daughter wanted everything done including resuscitation. It was a nightmare for all. Social work tried to work with the one daughter to bring her on board, the doctors could not follow the wishes of three without consensus of all four. The one who suffered was the patient.

Pick one whom you know will follow your wishes even if you know that they may not be their own but preferably are. Pick a secondary for the same beliefs who will step in if there is a circumstance in which the primary is unable to fulfill the role.
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NeedHelpWithMom Jul 2021
I totally agree with following wishes. I know someone who wanted her father resuscitated at a very elderly age. Her dad did not want it. She had medical power of attorney. Her poor dad only lived an hour after being resuscitated. That’s so cruel to do to anyone. I absolutely feel that we should respect our parents wishes. Just because someone has been given authorization to make certain decisions, doesn’t mean that they should do opposite of what their parent wants.

This woman felt absolutely horrible afterwards for going against her dad’s wishes. She had a very hard time with losing her dad and thought there was a chance to have him in her life longer. It was not meant to be.
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I and my older sister both have POA. In case my sister is not around or if something happens to her. The lawyer did it for us. I take care of the money part, she takes care of the medical part. It's worked out well for us. If one of us is away the other can manage. It's always nice to have a backup.
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disgustedtoo Jul 2021
It isn't just nice (however it IS nice that you both work together well and complement each other!) It should be considered a necessity to have someone else, either as backup or secondary, in the event something happens to the primary OR the primary rescinds. If the principal has become incompetent, then another can't be appointed.
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It is stupid to have mutlitple people on the same POA, that is asking for arguments and stress.
Just like you should never divide your estate to be "fair" and equal when some heirs will do better with different assets than others. Some POAs will be better at certain actions of POA. If one is better at legal/financial matters they can take care of the Financial POA. If one is better at the medical/caregiving they can take care of the medical POA.
If the financial person is not apt to put the funds towards the medical care, however. If they are just invest and grow the inheritance types, they should never be a POA of anytype no matter how financially clever they may be. Use them as an information asset to the actual POA
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NeedHelpWithMom Jul 2021
Yes, parents may need all of their money to go towards their care. Children need to forget about a possible inheritance!
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An elder law attorney set up the paperwork for a financial POA, health POA and appointment of health care representative while my brother was able to understand why we were doing this. I am the primary POA but we wanted to name successors in case something happened to me so the POA document spells this out clearly. I live 1500 miles from my brother, now diagnosed with a glioblastoma. Originally we thought he had early onset dementia since he had all the symptoms and I had to take over his affairs. My 22 year old niece lives near him, and the other brother lives about 1800 miles from him.

For the financial POA my niece and I are joint POA since she’s on the ground. I handle stuff like paying his bills, contacting Medicaid, etc and she does the banking. The other brother is secondary. For the health POA I’m primary, brother secondary and niece third. Essentially this brother has backed out of the picture so my niece and I work together. Some facilities called her first since she has a local number but she always contacted me right away. When my brother had doctor appointments she took him and I’d be in on speakerphone during the visit.

The time came when I knew hospice was better than treatment and I wanted him to be comfortable. She’s daddy’s girl and I wanted her to understand my decision. She was in agreement. She went to the hospice office to complete the paperwork while I was on speakerphone. We did the same for setting up an irrevocable funeral trust. Given her age and her other responsibilities I tried to keep her assistance to a minimum. She visits her dad at the nursing home and staff let her know stuff like he didn’t want to shower, while my brother’s hospice nurse and social worker are in touch with me. Obviously this POA arrangement could have been a train wreck in some families but it’s worked well for our family.
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disgustedtoo Jul 2021
Kudos to both you and your niece! If only ALL people in the world could come to their senses and understand working together benefits us all!
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I do not know the answer to what to do if two people are POA's and they do not agree. If anyone wants a POA, get an attorney who specializes in affairs such as this - not just any attorney - they will have seen and heard it all and can write up a specialized document so the "owner" is in peace knowing what they want done will be respected. Then if you want, stating the conditions, name a second person as a backup if the first one is not able to do the job. NEVER, EVER PUT TWO OR MORE PEOPLE INTO 'O N E' POSITION OF POWER. Hell will break loose sooner or later.
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I believe there are men and women out there that take the greatest delight in causing fights. I believe this is there way of laughing while they are burning in Hell as they cause a last fight.

Is it a bad idea. Boy is it ever.
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My 2 YBs have co-POA for mom. I don't know how it works. Actually, I do

Oldest brother has financial poa and YB has MPOA, but acts like he's totally in charge.

Which works b/c OB doesn't care and doesn't want to be involved in ANYTHING.

Personally, our 2 oldest daughters co-hold the POA. Actually, the OD has it, if something happens to her, then YD holds it. After that, I will assign VERY youngest daughter.

My son's an attorney and I would NEVER EVER EVER appoint him. Middle daughter is an emotional hot mess and can't deal with anything.

The daughter I chose is the oldest, but that's not why I chose her. She's capable, unemotional and totally fair. She will do a great job. DH and I argued for YEARs about why I would not have son as POA. (LIst is too long). I refused to sign the will until DH gave in--finally seeing how OD would be a MUCH better choice. DH's entire reason for choosing son was because--he's a man. Seriously? Does having male genitalia make you a better judge of character and/or better at 'manly things' like expediting wills.
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NeedHelpWithMom Jul 2021
This is common. I am with you, Mid, gender should not be a determining factor!
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Need: Although I was DPOA for my late mother (only because I was the only 'available' adult kid to live with her), when my sole sibling finally arrived at my mother's residence (mind you, as you probably know, I had been living with her for an extended period), he set up online banking under her financial institution with himself as a joint signer. I then asked to be a 'looker' on her accounts. As it turned out, it was a good decision on my part because we owed large chunks of change for various reasons concerning our mother's house and the sale of. After my DH and I had written our check out of OUR OWN MONIES, I saw that my brother had used MOTHER'S funds for his portion. I asked him to amend that; to use his own funds. I realize that this goes a little off topic, but I wanted to share this story with you.
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NeedHelpWithMom Jul 2021
Llama,

Actually, it’s not off topic. Situations like this arise and I think it’s important for you to share as part of your POA experience.

Thanks for responding!
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I am the sole POA for both my mom and dad, even though I have six siblings. They made this without my knowledge, but obviously they had perfect foresight. My siblings resent me, and decided to have nothing to do with my parents, and rarely call my mom - the only living parent now. My dad passed away from Alzheimer's disease two years ago. He was in memory care until the last two months when he lived with me. I was by his side when he took his last breath at 5:00 a.m. and immediately texted my six siblings. NONE of them called our mom. There is not back story of that warrent their behavior. If my dad was alive, or had PERFECT forsight and knew how they would behave, he would have written them out of their will.

Will all that being said, if one of my siblings was also POA, my mom would be living in some low budget (if it even exits) elder care place, and they would be trying to cash out whatever they can. It is so sad.
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NeedHelpWithMom Jul 2021
I bet you didn’t see these things coming your way. One never knows what’s in store for them. There are many surprises in life.

It seems like intuition did play a part in choosing you for the POA though.

Best wishes to you.
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A) Parental revenge for the teen years
B) Parental optimism
C) To prove miracles exit
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NeedHelpWithMom Jul 2021
Oh, yes!
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Starting with just descriptions of the various POAs available, from online sources:

"A Durable Power of Attorney acts as a permission slip, giving authority to a third party to do things on behalf of someone else who cannot do it for themselves. If done properly, the Durable Power of Attorney may very well prevent you from having to be declared incompetent in court if you something bad happens to you."
NOTE: That "something bad" could be accidents or long hospital stays as well as incompetence.)

"Durable Power of Attorney. A durable power of attorney, or DPOA, is effective immediately after you sign it (unless stated otherwise), and allows your agent to continue acting on your behalf if you become incapacitated."

This site gave a nice breakdown of the various POAs:

https://www.kindredhealthcare.com/resources/blog-kindred-spirit/2017/06/02/4-powers-of-attorney-every-caregiver-should-know

"General Power of Attorney. In this situation, the agent can perform almost any act as the principal, such as opening financial accounts and managing personal finances. A general power of attorney arrangement is terminated when the principal becomes incapacitated, revokes the power of attorney or passes away."

"Durable Power of Attorney. This arrangement designates another person to act on the principal’s behalf and includes a durable clause that maintains the power of attorney after the principal becomes incapacitated."

"Special or Limited Power of Attorney. In this instance, the agent has specific powers limited to a certain area. An example is a power of attorney that grants the agent authority to sell a home or other piece of real estate."

"Springing Durable Power of Attorney. In some states, a “springing” power of attorney is available and becomes effective when a specified event occurs such as when the principal becomes incapacitated."

What type of POA you need/want all depends on what your intent is. The third in the above list (Special/Limited) likely doesn't apply here - it could, but isn't as useful. I used this for the closing on my previous home. I didn't want to travel almost 2 hours each way to sign a couple of papers! It allowed my attorney to sign for me, then it was inactive/done.

As noted, Springing would only take effect when the conditions you specify are met (incapacitated, letters from doctor(s), etc.)

The General would cover POA duties before you were incapacitated, should you choose to have one or both girls take over duties. However, this would require having the Springing in place as well, as it is NFG after competency loss.

Durable does seem to be the best, dependent on who is chosen for this task. It does take effect immediately (unless otherwise noted), but if all are in agreement and you/husband are still capable, they don't need to step in. The nice part of this type is that it remains in effect if you become incapacitated (not always because of dementia!!!) Done right, no one would have to have you declared incompetent. The down side is when we appoint someone who either doesn't understand the duties or takes advantage of them. I trust your "girls" were well raised and would do the right thing!

Talking with the attorney who will set this up for you can give you advice about specifications, should you want them. Talking with the "girls" would also be useful.
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NeedHelpWithMom Jul 2021
Thanks for posting this!
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Follow up to my "learning" all the details about various POAs:

I would likely steer away from assigning both daughter as joint POAs. If one isn't available or they disagree, then there could be problems. If set up as one with the other as backup, then you cover 2 bases. It can be tailored such that if one isn't available and/or decided to revoke it, there is another to step in.

BTW, just to clarify - becoming any kind of POA does NOT mean one has to provide the hands-on care of the person. Just because they don't live nearby, they can still manage things for you. These documents are for managing and decision making for financials and medical care only. We can assign anyone willing to accept the duties, like an attorney, but that person isn't likely to accept it if it meant providing that person's care too! So, not to worry that the kids move away!

I wouldn't be concerned about assigning financial DPOA to one who isn't local. There are so many ways to have access to accounts and bills, that this shouldn't be a problem. Medical POA is a different story. Preferably this person/people should be more readily available in case of need. But, there are ways to deal with that if/when the time arrives. Whether they want to provide hands-on care for you should be a discussion between you all. If, as I believe, you do NOT want them taking you in, then make that clear to them and stipulate it in the legal documents if you can. ALL of your medical decisions should be made clear to both daughters. Have it documented so they will know what your wishes are. POAs are supposed to do as WE would have done, if we were capable of making decisions.

My parents assigned 2 of us as DPOA. The other brother isn't local, so he wasn't added. I never used it or even thought about it until mom was having short term memory issues. I then used it to take over financials. Billing, except for CC, was simple - I didn't even use the POA. I temp changed her mailing address through MY PO to my PO Box to get the bills, addresses, contact numbers. I then had them change the mail address to my PO Box. The CC was a pain, limiting what I could do - I'd discuss with attorney about getting digital access added to your documents (computer, social media, presumably CCs.) There is SO much digital content today that it should be a given when doing POAs.

It's all about who you feel comfortable giving this "power" to AND who is willing to accept that appointment. When you discuss all this with the girls, make sure they understand what your wishes would be for anything they need to manage for you, financial or medical. Also make sure they understand that for SS funds they legally should be signing up as rep payee, set up the special account and manage those funds separately, per SS rules.

Similar thoughts would apply to assigning executors (preferably all would be set up in trusts, to avoid probate - sometimes it can't be avoided, but it can be reduced. We will still have to pay cap gains as we access the funds, but avoiding probate was great! I only have to do some probate mainly because of the stimulus checks and the refund of the MC deposit.) My parents appointed the same 2 as executors, but given the opportunity, YB signed off. All 3 of us were assigned as trustees - not sure that was a very wise decision, but for the most part it's been ME doing/managing everything. Initially some discussion and agreement, then they melted into the woodwork.

Your daughters are likely well-grounded and if you discuss all this with them and express your wishes, plus assign them as complementary POAs vs joint POAs, there will less likely be issues. Of course they can still work together and discuss before moving forward - that's what sensible people do!

You also can name each other (you and hubs) as primary POA, with daughters as backup to you and to each other. Hopefully you have enough info now to pick the attorney's brain clean when you go!!!
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NeedHelpWithMom Jul 2021
Thanks for your info. I appreciate it.
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I think the parents are afraid of showing favoritism towards one child over the other.  In my opinion, making everything equal among the siblings can turn into a nightmare if the siblings disagree on how things should be done.

The way my moms is set up...I am the primary and if I am unable to perform the duties or make the decisions, then it reverts to my brother and or daughter.  Lets say for example mom and I are in a car accident together and I am going in for surgery...then my brother could step in to make medical decisions for mom.
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