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I think you are right. DO NOT PICK UP THAT PHONE! The one time you do, she will think she has you. Why is this woman calling you after you have layed it on the line, I have no idea. Like you said, there was no contact till 6 weeks ago. If it hadn't been for Mom, would you have even helped Aunt? Would she even have called upon you? Probably No. She would have had to call on one of her younger siblings.

I feel you have done your part. You brought her to where you live to be near her much younger siblings who are in their 60s. Where she lived had no services and her children felt she was the cause of their fathers death. Looks like, for now, her children are walking up to the plate. I think Aunt is afraid she will be forced into an AL or LTC by her children. By calling you, in her mind she can get you to pick her up and at least drop her off at her apt. I don't think picking up the phone and saying No will do anything. You have been telling her what you will and won't do and she is ignoring it for whatever reason. She is 88 and no matter how sharp u think she is, there is age decline.

You did what you needed to do. Her children are now involved, you are right in stepping back. Her future is now in her children's hands, as it should be.

Its sad, and I would have a problem with this, but with people like your Aunt you will need to be BLUNT. A doctor did this with my Mom when explaining her Dementia. He sat her in a chair and sat in one right across from her and looked her straight in the eye and explained to her what she would experience. You could do the same thing but say " Aunt ____, I am not your go to person. I have a fulltime job and care for my Mother. I really do not have a minute to help you. I helped you to move here to be near your siblings and to take advantage of the resources here. That is all I am willing to do, that's all I can do. If you need something, call a sibling. DO NOT CALL ME. DO NOT CALL MOM WITH THE INTENTION OF USING HER TO GET TO ME. You need to realize, the answer will be NO.
Then you need to stick by that No.

Lets hope though, that the children take over and you and Mom will not need to worry about her. I would ask your cousins to please help their Mom understand that she cannot rely on you because you have enough on your plate and that she is not your responsibility. To the point they say "you are not to contact Emotionally for anything"

Take that vacation and forget about what is going with Aunt. Block her calls for you and Mom. If VMs are left, delete before even listening to them. You need this time to relax and enjoy. Vacations are to give your mind a break. Its time for you and Mom.

My new mantra...I am here to help people find a way, not be the way.

From Boundries from Townsend and Cloud...When saying the word NO, you are not responsible for the reaction you get.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I'm also getting mad at her, I think her plan was to crawl into my work sobbing and asking for me. How embarrassing and just crappy to do to someone, it's not like there was something physically wrong with her. She wanted someone to feel sorry for her and drive her six hours away to see the daughter that didn't want to talk to her and didn't know she'd be coming.
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As I sit here reading this thread it came to me, if this was my Aunt and I laid out what I was willing to do and not willing to do or I couldn't do and had even had to say No and she continued to call me, I would be Mad at that point. Mad because she tried to keep manipulating me.

The children are now involved. E now can and should step back. What her Aunt wants and needs is now up to her children. E was correct in telling a member of the staff to tell her Aunt that the cat was OK and she had keys for the cousins. Her cousins are the only ones who E should be in contact with now. She should tell them that Aunt continues to phone her and please ask her to stop that now the cousins are involved there is nothing more E can do for Aunt. E did a nice thing helping Aunt to locate near siblings and resources. She gave Aunt a list of resources. Its now Aunts responsibility to take advantage of the resouces and if she has a problem she has siblings 20 yrs her jr who have the time to help.
She does not need E.
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EN, you have pushed back, but not far enough if what you want is no or very low contact.

Take the cat, for instance. In my county, animals go to impound at the humane society when someone is Baker Acted or goes to jail if there isn’t someone immediately available.

You don’t sound like you want to be immediately available in this way when the next crisis unfolds.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
The cat may eventually end up at the shelter if this goes on for very long but if it's just a week or two then she goes home, I'd hate to have gotten rid of it.
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I just talked to the kids and they met with the doctor today. He wanted more information and said right now she's staying voluntarily. He said they wont let her go without a safe discharge plan. I told them we can check in on the cat until we leave for vacation in about a week. They are willing to be involved with her as long as she gets treatment. I think she's calling me to try to get me to say that I'll help with whatever she needs so that she claim she has a safe discharge plan. She finally called my mom today and my mom didn't answer either.
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MargaretMcKen Jun 2022
Just remember that she can “claim she has a safe discharge plan”, whether you have said it or not. Make sure that they know you are NOT going to “help with whatever she needs”.
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What a pity! This woman burned all her bridges. You feel sorry if you don’t help, but if you do help, she’ll devour you.
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Again, you are not her discharge plan her children are. If they or Aunts Siblings are not willing to help her out, you are not the way.
Your cousins need to understand this as do her siblings. I may call her SW and tell her/him in no uncertain terms that neither you nor your Mom will be part of any discharge plan. If your Aunt says you are, she is wrong. She has been told prior to her stay that u and Mom will not be able to help her. She has children that need to take on that responsibility. These SWs or discharge planners need to follow up with the people a patient says will care for them when they return home.
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XenaJada Jun 2022
My own experience with Discharge Planner at our local hospital, they do everything in their power to send the patient home. They guilt, manipulate, coerce family members into agreeing to take on the responsibility of caring for the patient.

My relative (who I helped/enabled tremendously) was hospitalized no less than 8 times in 2 years. Every time she was hospitalized, she told the discharge planner that she had "family who would be staying with her 24/7 and doing for her." One granddaughter and I visited her daily, so the DP knew she did have family who cared. But we repeatedly informed the DP she was an unsafe discharge and there was NOBODY available to stay with her at night (she was totally unwilling to pay anyone, even tho she had the means).

She went to rehab multiple times and the same situation happened. One time she pulled out all the stops and convinced the rehab to discharge her 2 weeks early (lying to them about having help). When she got home, she could barely get into the house and to her recliner when she started hollering, crying, putting on a show, saying
"I've made a mistake! I should have stayed there longer! I don't know what I'm going to do NOW! I'm not able to cook or look after myself!"
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EN, is it possible to sit down with the kids and discuss her going to a home at least temporarily upon discharge?

I ask because this seems the best way to maintain the involvement you’re ok with, ie the weekly phone calls and monthly dinners. Whereas when she comes home to an empty house, you will probably get more calls, as well as making the call to involve the authorities as a mandated reporter.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I think that would involve me to a level I'm not comfortable with. Her, the kids and the medical team should decide her discharge plan. If it's assisted living or home health services, the hospital will be able to facilitate that much faster than anyone else. They won't let her go without some supports in place. I might think she should probably go to a home but maybe they think she'd fine with home health services.
The longer this goes on, the less I even want to have a small amount of contact with her. She's so manipulative and I feel like all the substances she was using was just to numb herself so she didn't have to deal with any emotions or guilt. She was trying to do less and less for herself. I can't respect that, it's such a copout. People should get better as they age, not more and more selfish.
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How are things going between you and your cousins? They cut contact with your aunt after they decided that she was responsible for her husband’s suicide. You stepped in because they didn’t, and moved her to town. They perhaps have a little bit of justification in expecting you to deal with the fall-out from the move? What a mess!
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
We've been talking by text every few days. It's a bit awkward, especially after my mom had called them and yelled at them for not taking care of their mom right before this happened.
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EN, I just wanted to chime in today to say that I find it very inspiring as I have read how you have handled yourself throughout this challenging situation. Echoing what others have said, you truly have your hands full, yet you have been able to recognize that your aunt was in need of a kindness, and you have shown her that.

Enjoy your time away with your own mother. Hopefully your vacation plans will allow for putting your feet up and soaking up the sun, if that is the kind of thing that you enjoy.

Know that you have done a noble thing in helping an elderly family member--even the self-centered ones deserve help. But that does not equate to "becoming her caregiver" or contact person. I believe that the boundaries you have set are manageable, without guilt even if aunt wants more from you.

Well done. I have learned from your example.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
Thank you, I feel like I've been doing something wrong every step of the way.
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As Judge Judy says "no good deed goes unpunished" I am just curious why the Aunt is so into Emotional.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
She thinks she can manipulate me into taking care of her. That's kind of been the dynamic with her and my mom throughout their lives so maybe she figured it spilled over to the next generation.
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EN, you wrote:
"I feel like I've been doing something wrong every step of the way."

This is SO how narcissists make you feel.

It's not you, it's her.
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I hate to say this but you will probably need to make arrangements for the cat now before you go on your vacation. If that means talking to aunt and kids that's just going to be what you have to do. I dont think aunt should be in an apartment. Assisted living is a better choice. Maybe if you tell aunt you are done and so is mom she will be more open to it.
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Beatty Jun 2022
The trouble can often be you may SAY you are done, SAY you will not fix their every problem, SAY you are not their maid. They could even nod.. but they do not LISTEN. They do NOT change their thoughts. They do NOT change their actions.

So the very minute a new problem occurs.. ring ring.. they are back on your phone, expecting you to jump to, fix it & serve them.

If they can SEE you, CALL you, GET messages to you via others - you are still their prey.

The only solution is to wear a cloak of invisibility. Physically BE absent. Block communication, calls/emails. Block any messengers too.

Only then they MUST turn to seek help elsewhere. In this case, Aunt MUST work with her discharge planner. She must take responsibility for herself. If she tells lies.. tells fibs of non-existent help to get home, she will then wear the consequences of those fibs.

E is not responsible to fix up the results of Aunt's poor decisions. This is how Aunt will LEARN.
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"My sister has my dead uncle's ashes at her home, aunt hasn't mentioned or asked for them once, we are waiting to see how long it takes for her to ask for them."

EN, I am wondering why your sister has the ashes of aunt's husband. Why didn't the children take their father's ashes? Did your sister plan the funeral?

I seriously doubt aunt will ever ask for her husband's ashes. It seems she didn't care for him, and was dismissive of him when he was alive, hardly mentioned about him since he died, then there's no reason she would want his ashes.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
The kids had a funeral and did not invite my aunt, I picked the ashes from the funeral home and brought them to her. She left the ashes sitting on the piano for several weeks and I believe she left them behind when she was at her home for the last time. My sister saw them and put them in her car intending to give them to my aunt. She forgot to that night and so they are at her house, aunt has not asked for or mentioned since then.
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Didn't the kids want the ashes?

I would be giving the keys, the ashes and anything else that belongs to aunt to one of her siblings. Otherwise, you are creating expectations ( from aunt and your cousins) that you will step up and step in.

She broke up your parents' marriage? Does your mom regret that?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I don't have the ashes my sister does, my sister does. I told them I would feeding the cat til the 18th, then they'd have to figure something else out. My parents had a few issues and she was one of them. Aunt claims are my father wanted to leave my mother for her.
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EN, I am sorry to be blunt and rude but I've got to tell you, you have a knack for getting into someone else's business.

You didn't have to pick up the uncle's ashes. That should have been a task for one of his children, after all they planned the funeral. After aunt left behind the ashes, probably intentionally, why did your sister take them from aunt's home? She should have informed uncle's children so they could come and take their dad's ashes if the cared to.

You went to aunt's apartment and felt an urge to clean and organize the place. Why? I would like to know why you want to clean someone else's home?

As for house sitting and cat sitting, and the house keys, you don't seem to want to let go of that responsibility. The apartment, who cares? The cat, it really should not be alone and only gets checked on every other day. That's animal neglect in my view. Ask other aunts and uncle nearby or aunt's children to take the cat and take good care of it.

And the biggest one of all, taking the bull by the horns and dragging it to your city. But that's water under the bridge now.

Please do some inner reflection and see why you feel the need to be a fixer of other people's problems.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
They couldn't give the ashes to the kids, it had to be the spouse or someone with the spouse's permission. Aunt was supposed to go with to pick up the ashes but said she didnt feel good and needed to stay home. I didn't bring the ashes from the house, my sister did. Umm, the cleaning urge? I dunno it just was stinky and messy in there and I felt like cleaning, but I didnt! :)

Nobody is willing to take the cat at this time, the cat is safe, has food and water, a clean litter box and is around familiar items. It is in better conditions it better now then a lot of cats are.
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EN; You remember Beatty's quote:

"There will be no plan as long as YOU are the plan"?

So the funeral home has the ashes. There is no one there authorized to take them. You (and SIS) LEAVE the ashes at the funeral home for uncle's spouse to arrange pickup. Just so NOT your issue. There will be a charge? So? So what?

You and your sister need to stop thinking that you have to solve everyone's problems.

I have a colleague who is a social worker; she told me that during training, she counseled a young mother who would bring her infant to sessions and appeared to "almost' let the baby roll out of her lap.

My friend's impulse was to lean forward to prevent the baby from falling. Her supervisor told her that no, she must not do that. The young woman never allowed the baby to fall.

Folks who are troubled in the way that your aunt is (Narcissistic? Borderline? Just neurotic?) often manipulate situations so that others rush in to help. "Swooping" is how my therapist puts it.

Therapy has been enormously helpful to me in this regard, as I too am a swooper. If you are not currently in therapy, I highly recommend it.
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My bookmark
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If you said you would care for the cat until the 18th, do so. Make a copy of the keys. One goes to a sibling. One goes to the hospital, to be kept with your aunt's property.

Stop asking. Start telling.
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"Aunt claims are my father wanted to leave my mother for her."

OMG, what a witch your aunt was. I used to have a friend in HS that always tried to go after someone else's boyfriends. Always bragged to me how these boys wanted her and liked her more than the girls they were with. I stopped being friends with her. Years later, she went to a birthday lunch of a mutual friend. After showing off pictures of her husband and kids, she asked to see pictures of my husband. Uh.. no... I don't have any to show you.
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Isthisrealyreal Jun 2022
What a witch your aunt was, IS.
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You sound like you're at the end of your rope, so much so that you seem to be asking how to answer questions that have not been posed. No where in your post do I hear your cousins saying anything. What do you mean by your aunt has 4 children? Are they adults?

You're working yourself up into a froth even before the wolf's at your door.

The scenarios that you are rehearsing in your mind reminds me of the joke about the driver who got stuck w/o gas 18 miles past the last-chance-for-80-miles gas station. As he starts walking back to that last chance station, carrying his empty gas can, he tells himself an ever worsening story that the attendent is going to take advantage of his situation and will probably raise the price by 5 dollars. After walking a few more gruelling miles in the blazing sun he's becoming more infuriated and thinks - no, for sure that guy's not going to increase the price by 5 but 10 dollars. Worn out, thirsty and suffering, after a few more torrid miles he tells himself, that son of gun will see me coming all right and with each increasing step he's certain the price will be up 20 dollars over the normal price if he's even lucky. By the time he gets to the attendent, so crazed is he in his filthy sweat drenched severely sunburned beat-up state and hyper imagined possibilities he hurls his gas can at the bewildered guy and tells him to keep his d**n gas.

You called your cousins, and in that conversation you explained beautifully that your mom could visit their mom for a short time. You did not say that during that call the 4 children pounced a proposal on you.

And you posted that you're afraid that your aunt is going to try to come to your home at the end of your mother's visit to her house. We're not there yet.

You can't be blame for being spasmic. You're probably whipped and worried, but worse for you, because you're tired and care worn you don't seem to recognize that YOU are the gentle Godzilla at the gate now. YOU have the responsibility YOU have the power.

Not by volume but by calm stead fast, reasonable, justified, logic you wait for a word, one word from anyone. Smile to yourself 'cause you've done a reversal of mind set. You've been rehearsing your vision of how the play is going to go, brilliantly your way. Author, Author.

They say - ENumb, now you know how much they want to be with each other. It'll even be a help to you them being together. (They may up the ante with cash, Don't do it).

If they start to do verbal maneuvers, I'm telling you to eat up and love every word they may grease you with because now you know, and they don't see, that they just gave you license to rip 'em one, but lady like...

"Cousin, I wish there was a way for me to take auntie in but it's all that I can do to do what I do now. I'm so sorry, but no". Be nice.
Focus on your problems. Do not ever, never, ever take on other people's responsibilites.

But really, I can't imagine 4 adults daring to impose this on you.
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Isthisrealyreal Jun 2022
You should read the entire thread. It will enlighten you.
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I received a phone call from another aunt today that my aunt in the hospital had called. She had listed a litany of reasons to this aunt on how it is urgent that someone come and get her tomorrow bring her to her apartment, then someone needs to take up to her town that she just moved from. Most of the reasons have already been dealt with but a new one is that she had an MRI of her back while in the hospital and now needs to have a back surgery in two weeks due to compression fractures. She told this aunt that she fell down a couple stairs. Which is interesting because she told my mom that she hurt her back during sex with her deceased husband. She also pretended worry about the cat and she knows damn good and well the cat is fine, multiple people have told her.

She didn't call at all on Saturday but I got several calls today. I think she takes occasional breaks to let us know she's mad.
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polarbear Jun 2022
What did the 2nd aunt want from you? What did you say to her? You don't have to volunteer to be the 'someone'.
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'family should help family'

⚠️Danger Alert!

Can be said with good intentions, ignorant to the details... Or..

This phrase can be weilded as a shovel - handed to you to shovel the 💩 💩💩 (to keep their hands clean).

When that phrase was handed to me.. I picked the messenger apart. Just WHO precicly do you mean should help? YOU are family, no ???
Oh, too busy, live too far, too squeamish, too MALE!!! (Yes that was used too). Once the list of family had been whittled down.. it was done to ONE person. Me! 🤯

How very dare you 🤬
No-body has the right to enslave me. To expect servitude.

So this is when I broke the news that the person in need, needs to actually take RESPONSIBIlTY for themself. To be a 🤬 adult.

If they can't then they must accept non-family help.

Let the chips fall..
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
It was a very ironic statement as the family member that said has refused to help anyone whenever she has been asked in the past.
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Aunt has now enlisted what are called "flying monkeys" to do her bidding-- create more drama, urgent need, foment more F.O.G., i.e., Fear, Obligation and Guilt.

Well done saying "no".

Family helps family--when it doesn't destroy YOUR life or prevent you from earning a living. Also, I do very little for the known narcissists and liars in the family.
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It really sounds like aunt knows you and mom are you g on vacation and is trying to stop you both from going. Make arrangements for the cat now. Don't wait until the last minute. Confirm that someone will be feeding and taking care of cat by Wednesday. This way you have that off your plate and are not trying to scramble at the last minute.
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EN,

Mentally prepare yourself. Auntie will show her azz, probably the day before you leave for vacation. Expect a fall, screaming back injury, etc.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
She's claiming she had an MRI and needs back surgery in two weeks. I hope she realizes that a rehab facility will be where she spends her recovery.
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Everyone jokes around about living together when they are old, but the reality is that it just can't happen. It's hard enough to keep married couples together once their health issues appear and care is needed. It's an unrealistic pipe dream for two sisters who have their own families to think it's going to work out. You need to be firm with your cousins and aunt and just tell them that you can't be the solution to her loneliness and you certainly cannot be her caregiver. I would be afraid to let her come visit because you may have an issue getting her to leave.

Bases on your other posting, I think she is having some cognitive issues and her kids (your cousins) are more than willing to let you take her on. Don't do it. Tell her now is not a good time to visit. Just wait a bit and see what happens.
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Where did the "back surgery" idea come from? That is a major surgery that requires a lot of pre-op planning. It's a bit strange to just have a major surgery within 2 weeks without any warning or preparation. Is this an emergency surgery? I kinda doubt it. More like a stunt to get attention.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
Well, apparently she had an MRI of her back while at the hospital which I kind of feel is bullpoop because they don't generally treat other conditions while someone is in the psych ward. She's claiming that they said she needs back surgery for compression fractures. It looks like it's pretty rare for them to recommend surgery for compression fractures, usually they just say rest and wait for it to get better. Or she thinks she can con someone into taking care of her following the surgery. However, one of my uncles is actually have an MRI of his back this week and she knew about this. Very coincidental, eh!
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EN, whether or not Aunt had MRI during psychiatric hold, or if she been told she needs surgery is cause for "oh, that's interesting".

It is SO not cause for anything else.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
Yeah, I bet she was trying to lay the groundwork to tell them all that she needs someone to assist her 24/7. Oh well, they'll all learn to say no to her eventually too. God bless them and keep them.
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It feels so good to not have spoken to her for a week.
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polarbear Jun 2022
EN, I know that feeling well.
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Again, my bookmark so I know where I have read to. Can't wait to see how this all pans out.
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