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My mother and I are joint account holders on two checking accounts since 2004. During Covid she had a drastic cognitive decline at age 86. In 2023, I accessed the checking accounts online and began paying her bills. I set up her home care agency in 2024 and paid them using mom’s money. I have no POA. My sibling and I lost our guardian case and the court appointed mom a plenary guardian. Do I have to return money used from the joint checking accounts paid to the home care agency that I set up to the newly appointed guardian? I look forward to your feedback. Thank you for your time!

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If you used the money to pay for services for your mom, I cannot see why. Have they asked for it back?
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Reply to Jennyjenjen
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Not sure anyone can answer this question accurately since this is a global forum and rules may vary by state in the US.

Did they ask for it back?

If I had to guess, I would think that since the money went for your Mom's care (and this was provable) I don't know why they'd ask for it back... wouldn't they have to get it back from the care agency? The money didn't go to you...
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Sofie2024 Oct 31, 2024
Hello,
While the guardian did not ask for any money back, as yet, she is requesting all official receipts and documents showing how money from the account was used. There was also a comment that I was not the guardian when I used the money to pay for mom's care. This made me sick to my stomach.
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You will be informed if they wish you to return this money, and that will be a legal action brought by her now guardian for the state.
If you kept careful records of ALL WITHDRAWALS from her account on a monthly basis, every penny into her accounts and every penny out of her accounts, and files as to where this money went (for her care and her bills) with receipts then I do not believe that you will be asked to return the money.
You may be taken off of the bank account and you may not; that remains to be seen.

I would take this a step at a time.
If you are asked to return money you should consult an attorney for yourself.
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Reply to AlvaDeer
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Sofie2024 Nov 1, 2024
Hello AlvaDeer,

I do have receipts for every transaction. I have provided receipts that she requested at this point. The guardian has already closed the bank accounts. I will plan on getting help from an attorney if the guardian requests money back which was used to pay for mom's cares.

Thank you for your time.
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I don't see why. The money was used for Mom and her care.
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Sofie2024 Nov 1, 2024
Thank you JoAnn29.
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Deep breaths. Take one request at a time. Did you have an attorney when you sought guardianship? Do you have access to that attorney now?

If checks were written to a care company then those checks should be reflected on the bank records that the guardian now has access to. If the only reason you are not thinking this is sufficient is that you were not the guardian when you paid them then your guardian’s comment to that effect would serve as a warning to me that this guardian may be difficult to deal with. I would make every effort to meet their demands but I would find an experienced attorney.

If for some very odd reason you paid them in cash, then the care co should be able to provide the guardian with records of funds received and dates of service.

Banks can be difficult to deal with but their legal group will have experience with who can do what. Has your bank closed your account? Do you still have access to the records?

We have members on the forum who have been through guardianship scenarios but each day we are reminded how different states are one from the other.

We can suggest common sense solutions but that doesn’t mean it’s the law in your state.

If I had done something wrong, knowingly or not, then I would be on notice that ignorance of the law is not an excuse and I would seek legal council.

There is so very much fraud in elder care that examples will be made in an effort to keep people honest.

Let us know how this evolves. We learn from one another.
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Reply to 97yroldmom
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Sofie2024 Nov 1, 2024
Hello,
I had an attorney for the guardian case who has filed a withdrawal with the court to end representation after I lost the case. I no longer have access to him. If I am going to need any future representation from an attorney, I will plan to hire someone else. Not sure how I will go about finding a new attorney who has expertise with this issue. I appreciate any feedback.

I do have records of the care company's receipts accessing the checking account and obtaining the electronic automatic payments.

Thanks again for the feedback.
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As long as you have receipts from the home care agency that provides information that it was for your mothers care the money paid will be deemed appropriate allowed expense. And you will not have to pay back.
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Reply to AMZebbC
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When you opened the account, or were added to the account with your mom, did you each have "sole right of survivorship"? If so, then any money into the account by either party belonged to you both. As I see it, you should not have to pay any money back if that is the case.
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Sofie2024 Nov 7, 2024
Hello Dormasgirl,

Yes, when I was added to the accounts in 2004, I was given and remained "sole right of survivorship". Thanks for your response.
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(Assuming USA here...) If you actually held the account "jointly" then the money belonged to BOTH of you, no power-of-attorney needed. The only reason I can imagine why the new guardian might want money from you is if you're suspected of using mom's money for yourself, yet you can prove you didn't. I would look for legal advice, though. I'm surprised the guardian was able to close an account that you jointly owned.
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Sofie2024 Nov 7, 2024
Hello Beandk,
I was also surprised that the bank did not reach out to me prior to closing the account. I called the bank when I found out that the account was closed and I was informed that they will follow-up and provide me with a reason(s) for them doing so. It has been 6 weeks. No response from the bank. I feel that I will be wasting my time since I eventually have to give up the account. Thanks for the feedback.
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Sofie2024: Do retain another attorney.
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Reply to Llamalover47
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AlvaDeer Nov 6, 2024
I honestly don't think Sophie has any need of an attorney. She was put on accounts to help and that's what she did and she has receipts. The guardian can request a court order to look at records if the guardian wishes to. The Court will explain what records Sophie should submit. I honestly would just wait this whole thing out and like I said, just tell current guardian "I will be happy to give you everything I have just as soon as the court requests I do so. I meanwhile hold my mom's private information about her past records as private unless requested by court documents."
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Be transparent with the new guardian about the finances. Then, ask to divide the account in a fair way so you do not lose all your money and mom does not lose all her money.
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Sofie2024 Nov 7, 2024
Hi Taarna,
The good thing is that I had no money in the accounts. All the money in the accounts was mom's. The vast majority of bills were on automatic payments. Thank your for the feedback.
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When I got guardianship for my mother control over the accounts started the day the guardianship went into effect. Meaning any money spent prior to that day didn’t matter. I looked into it since my brother was on her account. The day the guardianship went into effect I switched banks and submitted that information to the courts. All transactions prior to that didn’t matter. So anything my brother used wasn’t reviewed.
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Reply to Toddpm
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The problem is that you are allowing yourself to be intimidated. If you spent the money appropriately - and it seems that you did - then there is no reason to be worried or feel threatened. The problem is in your head, not in reality. Be more assertive. When you speak with the guardian, use an assertive tone and advise him or her that you will be happy to provide receipts if and when he/she has a court order requesting them. Your tone of voice and the nature of your answers conveys all that needs to be said. Here is what you need to say in a calm and assertive voice: "I can assure you that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, any money I withdrew from this account was used strictly for my Mom's care. If you present me with a court order for receipts, I will be more than happy to provide them to you." Practice saying it.

You are creating a problem where none exists. Your anxiety is coming through loud and clear and it causes the guardian to suspect something is amiss. Get a grip on yourself. Don't let anyone intimidate you when you have done absolutely nothing wrong.
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