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Prolife, you are so obviously reading things that are not there in what people have written, that I am starting to worry about your lack of reading comprehension and critical thinking skills.
Only ONE person in this thread said they thought their loved one was killed by medical drugs. What other people have written is that their dying loved ones were given drugs to alleviate suffering, AND that they also died while in hospice. You seem to be making this huge leap in thinking that "alleviating suffering" and "death" are the same thing. They have NOT said the drugs CAUSED their loved ones' deaths.
But you are so determined to see murder where there is none, that you are not even reading people's comments fully.
People go to hospice to die. The compassionate provision of drugs is to help them not suffer needlessly WHILE their bodies are in the process of dying naturally. The drugs treat the SYMPTOMS of dying in order to make natural death less uncomfortable.
I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.
If I take a Midol, I am not shortening or putting a stop to my natural menstrual period. Rather, I am treating the symptoms of my period. The lining of my uterus is still being shed.
If I take an Advil because my back is out, it does not put my spinal column back into place. It just stops my back from hurting for a little while. But my back is still out, regardless of whether it hurts or not.
Prolife, I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind but I want you to understand the process from a clinical perspective. (I assume you're not a nurse.)
I was a post operative nurse for 12 years. My job was to relieve the new surgical patients' pain. I gave them Morphine 5, 10, or 15 mg. every 4 hours (depending on their weight). It relieved their pain with no untoward effects. If they were anxious before or after surgery, I was able to give them Ativan 1 or 2 mg. They felt much more calm and relaxed after receiving it. There's nothing wrong with this situation, is there? Seems pretty normal and routine.
Now, let's talk about a dying patient. They also can have pain like the surgical patient. I, as a part time hospice nurse, medicate my dying patient with the same medicines AT THE SAME DOSAGES as my surgical patient. They both have pain and anxiety and they are both medicated for it. Neither one die FROM the medication.
You must be under the false belief that huge doses are given to the dying and that's WHY they die. WRONG! They die because a disease has taken their life.
Some times people who suffer chronic pain have built up a tolerance to the dosage of their pain medication and they need a little more to ease the pain. That happens when you have taken narcotics for a prolonged amount of time. It's called tolerance.
Morphine is compatable with Ativan. One is for pain, one is for anxiety. They don't have any negative interactions when given together.
So, why can I medicate the post op patient and keep him comfortable after surgery but I can't do the same with the hospice patient receiving the same amount of drugs?
You are trying to demonstrate cause and effect (give morphine=killing patient) but you aren't taking into account that the dying person's body is in shutdown mode which will result in death, with or without medications.
Do you know that nurses in the hospitals use the same stuff when their patients are dying but nobody ever says a thing about a hospital nurse giving morphine to a dying patient. I gave the same meds in the hospital with my dying patients that I did when I cared for the post op patients, as I do with my hospice patients.
Would you want to be screaming in pain as you die? I've seen it and treated it and the family was so appreciative that their loved one didn't use their last breath screaming in pain or anxiety.
Another thing, not everyone receives Morphine and Ativan. I've done calls for extended nausea. Then we switch to an anti-emetic. NO Morphine OR Ativan given at all. We focus on why the patient is uncomfortable and try to treat it to make them more comfortable.
That's the whole point of hospice, to make them comfortable with their terminal illness.
Prolife, please note that the comfort meds given by Hospice is NOT euthanasia. I realize that is what you want to believe, and that is your choice. Make sure your own family knows you want no part of Hospice. Put that into writing for them, have it notarized.
I'll have you all know that euthanasia is illegal in every state. If you and/or someone else imposes death in any way, for any reason ("to relieve suffering" "they were going to die any way"), it is an illegal, punishable crime.
I find it interesting that people can make statements here, basically admitting to imposing death on their loved one, and that's allowed, praised and accepted. But if I make a statement pointing out the obvious, that this is murder and you are a killer (because you killed someone), my comment is removed.
PEOPLE GO INTO HOSPICE CARE BECAUSE THEY ARE EXPECTED TO DIE. Some die with in days, some with in months or even years, a few graduate. Anyone who wants to can resume treatment (or their POA can order it. Why the heck are people surprised when someone dies under hospice care?
I hope, when my time comes, if I am lying in hospice in pain and suffering, that some kindly person helps me off into death without some rabid anti-choicer trying to get in between me and the needle.
I don't CARE what you think about your god deciding these things, you don't get to impose your religious beliefs on me.
Yes, my loved one was on a morphine and Ativan cocktail in the last 14 hours of his life and thank goodness for that, after dealing with 14 hours of at-home hospice with NO pain relief and sitting through his screaming in both pain and terminal restlessness for hours before I could get a hospice nurse out to the house.
He was dying from cancer. The morphine didn't hasten it or cause it. Like the others have mentioned, if your loved one was on hospice service, your loved one was dying. That's how you qualify for hospice.
I will thank our hospice service each and every day for taking over and moving him to an actual hospice facility after that disastrous 14 hours of at-home hospice. He was bathed, clean and comfortable for his last 14 hours. Making it possible to speak, say goodbye and know he was without the pain and agitation from terminal restlessness. I will never call that treatment "deadly" or imply that it wasn't "care".
My mother in law is currently on at-home hospice, and she will also be allowed whatever she needs to make her comfortable, whatever it may be and whatever time that may be needed.
My dad started on a half a syringe just for pain relief. He was eating and talking. Then they upped it to a full syringe every for hrs.he was so drugged up.couldnt talk no more his eyes just started at cealing.the caregiver kept kickingbus out of room not sure why but after a few hrs he was like in a coma and even then she gave him another full syringe.he died on x mas.
My husband had dementia for ten years. When he was clearly in the final stage I brought hospice in. Since we were at home I controlled all the meds. He was not in physical pain so I did not use the morphine. But, alas, he died anyway. He did not die from anything hospice did. He died because he had a terminal condition and it was at its end.
My mother went on hospice care in a nursing home, after her hip broke. She had a lot of pain but could not take morphine (based on past experience) and they found other combinations of drugs to help with the pain. She was 93 when that happened. She'll be 96 soon. After about 3 months she got off hospice because she no longer qualified. She had seemed to be at death's door, but she fooled us! It wasn't her time to die. She didn't.
My daughter works in an AL. A gentleman who had been there a few years was liked by staff and fellow residents alike. He was pleasant and cheerful and cooperative. He cracked jokes. He flirted a little. So my daughter was bummed when he rapidly declined. It was especially hard to see him in so much pain. She was relieved when one of the man's son asked for hospice to be brought in. But then another son, who visited less often but was also involved in his father's life, said he wasn't sure it was time, and there was a delay in giving the order. Meanwhile the father suffered great pain. Of course staff NEVER interfere with family decisions, but there was a great collective sigh of relief when hospice came in and administered sufficient morphine to get him comfortable. For many of the staff it is not just a job. They get very attached to long-term residents. My daughter comes home sad when someone dies, but she is accepting of that. You can't work in geriatrics and not deal with death. But seeing someone in excruciating pain and not having adequate means to relieve it is worse for her. We all are going to die. I think we all hope for minimal suffering as that happens.
My mom is not yet on Hospice care. she has CHF, dementia, aphasia and recurring pleural effusions. We were advised by the pulmonologist that tapping her chest again is not advisable. Do I want to get Hospice involved when they discover that her chest has filled up again? Hell, yes! I hope and pray that we can prevent my mother dying while gasping for breath, feeling as though she's drowning.
A lethal dose of morphine is about 200mg. Your patient is not getting anywhere near that amount. Do the math. Plus it only lasts about 4 hours. Roxanol comes in two strengths: 10mg/5ml and 100mg/5ml. Hospice will start you with 1ml of the lower strength= 2mg. So if Grandma got one or two doses and died, it wasn 't the morphine. If she got 6 doses in one day, and died, it wasn't the morphine. Same for Ativan---the dose is not lethal.
I think that there is another thread where this is already being discussed ad nauseum. I would like to point out that hospice care is end of life care, so almost everyone in hospice care dies. And also that ativan and morphine are meant to be administered to relieve suffering in the final days and hours, so it is logical to assume that most people who receive this "cocktail will indeed die.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
Only ONE person in this thread said they thought their loved one was killed by medical drugs. What other people have written is that their dying loved ones were given drugs to alleviate suffering, AND that they also died while in hospice. You seem to be making this huge leap in thinking that "alleviating suffering" and "death" are the same thing. They have NOT said the drugs CAUSED their loved ones' deaths.
But you are so determined to see murder where there is none, that you are not even reading people's comments fully.
People go to hospice to die. The compassionate provision of drugs is to help them not suffer needlessly WHILE their bodies are in the process of dying naturally. The drugs treat the SYMPTOMS of dying in order to make natural death less uncomfortable.
I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.
If I take a Midol, I am not shortening or putting a stop to my natural menstrual period. Rather, I am treating the symptoms of my period. The lining of my uterus is still being shed.
If I take an Advil because my back is out, it does not put my spinal column back into place. It just stops my back from hurting for a little while. But my back is still out, regardless of whether it hurts or not.
That's how symptom-treating drugs work.
Science is useful. May I suggest learning some?
I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind but I want you to understand the process from a clinical perspective. (I assume you're not a nurse.)
I was a post operative nurse for 12 years. My job was to relieve the new surgical patients' pain. I gave them Morphine 5, 10, or 15 mg. every 4 hours (depending on their weight). It relieved their pain with no untoward effects. If they were anxious before or after surgery, I was able to give them Ativan 1 or 2 mg. They felt much more calm and relaxed after receiving it. There's nothing wrong with this situation, is there? Seems pretty normal and routine.
Now, let's talk about a dying patient. They also can have pain like the surgical patient. I, as a part time hospice nurse, medicate my dying patient with the same medicines AT THE SAME DOSAGES as my surgical patient. They both have pain and anxiety and they are both medicated for it. Neither one die FROM the medication.
You must be under the false belief that huge doses are given to the dying and that's WHY they die. WRONG! They die because a disease has taken their life.
Some times people who suffer chronic pain have built up a tolerance to the dosage of their pain medication and they need a little more to ease the pain. That happens when you have taken narcotics for a prolonged amount of time. It's called tolerance.
Morphine is compatable with Ativan. One is for pain, one is for anxiety. They don't have any negative interactions when given together.
So, why can I medicate the post op patient and keep him comfortable after surgery but I can't do the same with the hospice patient receiving the same amount of drugs?
You are trying to demonstrate cause and effect (give morphine=killing patient) but you aren't taking into account that the dying person's body is in shutdown mode which will result in death, with or without medications.
Do you know that nurses in the hospitals use the same stuff when their patients are dying but nobody ever says a thing about a hospital nurse giving morphine to a dying patient. I gave the same meds in the hospital with my dying patients that I did when I cared for the post op patients, as I do with my hospice patients.
Would you want to be screaming in pain as you die? I've seen it and treated it and the family was so appreciative that their loved one didn't use their last breath screaming in pain or anxiety.
Another thing, not everyone receives Morphine and Ativan. I've done calls for extended nausea. Then we switch to an anti-emetic. NO Morphine OR Ativan given at all. We focus on why the patient is uncomfortable and try to treat it to make them more comfortable.
That's the whole point of hospice, to make them comfortable with their terminal illness.
I find it interesting that people can make statements here, basically admitting to imposing death on their loved one, and that's allowed, praised and accepted. But if I make a statement pointing out the obvious, that this is murder and you are a killer (because you killed someone), my comment is removed.
I don't CARE what you think about your god deciding these things, you don't get to impose your religious beliefs on me.
Let those of us who think our parents, spouses, siblings and children deserve a peaceful and fear-free death have hospice services if we want them.
He was dying from cancer. The morphine didn't hasten it or cause it. Like the others have mentioned, if your loved one was on hospice service, your loved one was dying. That's how you qualify for hospice.
I will thank our hospice service each and every day for taking over and moving him to an actual hospice facility after that disastrous 14 hours of at-home hospice. He was bathed, clean and comfortable for his last 14 hours. Making it possible to speak, say goodbye and know he was without the pain and agitation from terminal restlessness. I will never call that treatment "deadly" or imply that it wasn't "care".
My mother in law is currently on at-home hospice, and she will also be allowed whatever she needs to make her comfortable, whatever it may be and whatever time that may be needed.
My mother went on hospice care in a nursing home, after her hip broke. She had a lot of pain but could not take morphine (based on past experience) and they found other combinations of drugs to help with the pain. She was 93 when that happened. She'll be 96 soon. After about 3 months she got off hospice because she no longer qualified. She had seemed to be at death's door, but she fooled us! It wasn't her time to die. She didn't.
My daughter works in an AL. A gentleman who had been there a few years was liked by staff and fellow residents alike. He was pleasant and cheerful and cooperative. He cracked jokes. He flirted a little. So my daughter was bummed when he rapidly declined. It was especially hard to see him in so much pain. She was relieved when one of the man's son asked for hospice to be brought in. But then another son, who visited less often but was also involved in his father's life, said he wasn't sure it was time, and there was a delay in giving the order. Meanwhile the father suffered great pain. Of course staff NEVER interfere with family decisions, but there was a great collective sigh of relief when hospice came in and administered sufficient morphine to get him comfortable. For many of the staff it is not just a job. They get very attached to long-term residents. My daughter comes home sad when someone dies, but she is accepting of that. You can't work in geriatrics and not deal with death. But seeing someone in excruciating pain and not having adequate means to relieve it is worse for her. We all are going to die. I think we all hope for minimal suffering as that happens.
Roxanol comes in two strengths: 10mg/5ml and 100mg/5ml. Hospice will start you with 1ml of the lower strength= 2mg.
So if Grandma got one or two doses and died, it wasn 't the morphine.
If she got 6 doses in one day, and died, it wasn't the morphine.
Same for Ativan---the dose is not lethal.
With or without the "cocktail" my lived ones were going to die.
The "cocktail" helped to make the end more manageable..
I would like to point out that hospice care is end of life care, so almost everyone in hospice care dies. And also that ativan and morphine are meant to be administered to relieve suffering in the final days and hours, so it is logical to assume that most people who receive this "cocktail will indeed die.